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Old May 28 2014, 12:49 AM   #16
Nightdiamond
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

The Klingon have too many hard-core cultural customs they wont be willing to give up.

Plus they have a feudal style government that might be too incompatible with the Federation's requirement for democracy.

They might be satisfied with being just allies--they already have free transit through each others space, a mutual defense pact, an open trade between the two.

It seems that the main reason any of these powers would join the Federation is if they know (or believe) they will enjoy long term benefits from doing it, so it seems that the Cardassians might likely join the Fed long before the Romulans will.
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Old May 28 2014, 04:28 AM   #17
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
If the movement started by Spock still survived the destruction of Romulus/Remus, it is conceivable that the surviving members of the Romulan race would finally see the illogical effects of empire, and how it brought about the destruction of their world.
Romulus was destroyed by a supernova. A natural disaster.

If anything, their imperialist tendencies saved the species. They weren't on one planet to be wiped out all at once. At least not that we know of.
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Old May 28 2014, 01:27 PM   #18
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

-Brett- wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
If the movement started by Spock still survived the destruction of Romulus/Remus, it is conceivable that the surviving members of the Romulan race would finally see the illogical effects of empire, and how it brought about the destruction of their world.
Romulus was destroyed by a supernova. A natural disaster.

If anything, their imperialist tendencies saved the species. They weren't on one planet to be wiped out all at once. At least not that we know of.
Conjecture on both our parts!

But, I think its conceivable that Spock's unification movement could have spread off Romulus to other Romulan-held worlds. In fact, it would be more likely to thrive off world, than Romulus itself. I choose to think that a lot of Romulans who survived off world, might want to look at the destruction of Romulus as a wake-up call of what becomes of empires, and listen to what their Vulcan cousins have to say, especially if Vulcan and the Federation are there to offer a helping hand in the time of such disaster.

But you are right, it could just as easily go the other way, and the surviving Romulans could co hyper-militant, in an effort to preserve their race.

The big question that would answer that would be this: how many Romulans are left, and what is their military capability, now? The lower the number and less military capability there is, I would like to think the more likely the Romulans would be willing to let go of their old ways, and join the Federation, and possibly even consider the Vulcan way of life. After all, it took a war that almost destroyed Vulcan before Vulcans were ready for Surak's teachings. Pretty much the same for Earth: it took WWIII before Earth changed. Maybe with Romulus destroyed, the Romulans are ready for Surak's and Spock's teachings?
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Old May 28 2014, 05:51 PM   #19
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

In the case of the RSE, we don't know how they ruled worlds with other races on, if there were controlled through the use of force or threat of force with the destrcton of the Romulan Star System some might sieze the opportunity and revolt and try and gain theri independance.

Perhaps whilst relations between the UFP and the RSE had warmed, the RSE delayed before asking for Federation assistance in regards to the Supernova. All we can do is engage in conjecture
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Old May 28 2014, 07:27 PM   #20
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

Having incompatible government to join the Federation now != Never having compatible government at any point in the next few hundred years. Just look how fast Japan became democratic after WWII. Probably several of the Federation member worlds are only a few centuries removed from a dictatorship.

It's unclear how much lead time the Romulans had to evacuate Romulus before the supernova (If you even consider the two versions of Trek to occur in the same universe), but probably long enough to evacuate a good number of their citizens, and certainly long enough to evacuate their military. It's probably the poorer of the civilians who died in the supernova. But it's also possibly the case that due to their destroyed infrastructure, their economy collapsed so bad that the Empire was overthrown by a democratic revolution after, in which case they may join the Federation a couple decades after.
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Old May 28 2014, 07:44 PM   #21
MacLeod
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

Well we of course don't know things like population, distance to re-location planet number of availble ships, but in TUC they estimated they could evacute Qo'nos within in the 50 earth year time period. So that could give us an indication of how long it might take to evacuate Romulus. We might still be talking at best a decade.
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Old May 28 2014, 11:08 PM   #22
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

I don't have anything to add to the wider implications/possibiilities of this question. Only to toss out a random musing as to how the various Xindi species might make their respective choices. Certainly divided initially, one would think, but for how long and what would the likely particulars of that fault line be as it played out over time?
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Old May 29 2014, 02:09 AM   #23
varek
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

I think every race could join the Federation, if it met the requiements. But, some preferred to go their own way, rather than melt into the UFP.
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Old May 29 2014, 02:34 AM   #24
Enterprise1701
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

In the 26th century glimpsed by Archer in "Azati Prime", Klingons are part of the Federation although Daniels could conceivably have been lying or only some and not all Klingons were part of the Federation.
The Borg aren't a real race, and their collective consciousness would never accede to irrelevant life forms.
The Jem'Hadar by definition seem to have a short life span. If the Founders could be convinced to see equality, then they could easily genetically modify the Jem'Hadar.

But most importantly, it just takes time for most civilizations to accept the Federation's ideals.
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Old May 31 2014, 12:52 PM   #25
T'Girl
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Plus they have a feudal style government that might be too incompatible with the Federation's requirement for democracy.
We've seen too little of the governments of the Federation Membership to say that each individual Member has to practice democracy, from the example of Ardana other government types are possible.

The Federation Council itself could be democratic without democracy being a Membership requirement. Whatever type of government the Klingons have, it is functional enough to form a nation that is the equal in power to the Federation.

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Old June 2 2014, 09:32 PM   #26
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

I imagine the Federation charter has something similar to America's tenth amendment, saying all powers not explicitly relegated to the Federation are left to the member planets.
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Old June 3 2014, 12:32 AM   #27
Nightdiamond
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Plus they have a feudal style government that might be too incompatible with the Federation's requirement for democracy.
We've seen too little of the governments of the Federation Membership to say that each individual Member has to practice democracy, from the example of Ardana other government types are possible.
Wow, like Trek made a major mistake on that one. From what we know about the FED'S standards on human rights, they could/should never accept a planet like Ardana as a member.

Then again TOS trek's standards on things were different.

Whatever type of government the Klingons have, it is functional enough to form a nation that is the equal in power to the Federation.
That goes without saying. The Klingons, from their point of view, don't need democracy because their way of government has already gotten them lands, colonies and military power.

But some of the basic ideas of their government would never meet requirements for Federation membership.

The Federation Council itself could be democratic without democracy being a Membership requirement.
That sounds a lot like the Republic (Star Wars). And we know how that turned out.

I think the Federation's membership have democracy as a basic requirement and then some type of constituion that addresses individual and civil rights.

Ardana should have never made the list. If it did, then it's a wonder the Federation didn't end up like the Republic.
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Old June 3 2014, 04:35 AM   #28
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

Wadjda wrote: View Post
I am no9t sure if Klingons coul ever be peaceful.
Chancellor Gorkon?
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Old June 3 2014, 08:10 AM   #29
T'Girl
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
That sounds a lot like the Republic (Star Wars). And we know how that turned out.

it's a wonder the Federation didn't end up like the Republic.
Let's see, a powerful democratic institution for a thousand years, then a few decades of various civil wars, followed by (in the EU) a return to democracy.

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Old June 3 2014, 02:20 PM   #30
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Re: Could every race join the Federation?

Personally I think everyone is selling the Klingons far too short, especially given the amount of disparate personalities, not to mention evolution of certain characters that we've seen over the many years of onscreen Trek.

Now I'm not saying that the Klingons should join the Federation. Just that the prospect isn't that far-fetched.

From the outside, yes, the Empire appears to be nothing more than a collection of space vikings/barbarians - but surely such a society would be hard-pressed to maintain an interstellar empire as long as it supposedly has? There's got to be much more going on beneath the surface than just the instinct to fight everyone.

Consider the revelations of Enterprise's Judgement, where we learn of the existence of other Klingon castes besides the straight-up warriors. And how their culture had been undergoing a shift towards a more warmongering staunch for some time by that point.

Consider the shift between Enterprise and TOS, where the Klingons appeared far more regimented and disciplined in their approach to combat than the warriors of the previous generation, or The Next Generation.

Clearly Klingon society as a whole is fluid and capable of change, or regression, as much as any human society. And while their society may force the foul-smelling barbarian mould on many of its citizen, it is by no means intrinsically in their nature. Case in point; Worf, a man raised outside Klingon culture yet deeply entrenched in it, who does his best to balance the concept of honour and loyalty he learnt from humans alongside his people's same concepts. Obviously to varying results.

And of course with Worf we were given Martok; a commoner, supposedly forbidden from joining the warrior class (Caste?), who rises through the ranks to general and then Chancellor, a man who escaped a certain death in a Dominion prison camp, a man who knows how fickle fate can be. I believe he's displayed a tolerance for other cultures and beings rarely seen outside of Worf. When challenged by Nog to get a handle on his troops, he respects the Ferengi's courage, whereas you'd expect any normal background barbarian Klingon to simply stab him for disrespecting his honour - but Martok isn't like that, he knows simply swooping into battle at a moments notice isn't everything.

He is Klingon to the core and won't apologise for it, however, he has a respect for other species rarely seen in cliche warriors. Another interesting example I like is What You Leave Behind, during the toast on Cardassia Prime with himself, Captain Sisko and Admiral Ross. Martok is revelling in victory, but Ross and Sisko can't get over all the death around them and simply pour their drinks out. Is Martok outraged? Nope, he shrugs and mutters about humans having no stomach for bloodshed (or something; the line was Klingon, not my first language ). He's not going to force the issue the way a typical Klingon might.

My point being; we've seen the capacity of Klingon characters to evolve, change, act outside of their species so-called character, and we know their society is capable of change.

Is it so far-fetched that Chancellor Martok, or his successor, could maybe introduce a series of reforms elevating the status of the other Klingon castes? Perhaps eventually see a rebirth of the empire as a more egalitarian society? Maybe the Klingon Defence Force could be re-purposed as the Federation Defence Force, creating a complimentary service to Starfleet, while still allowing the warrior class to exercise their martial prowess when the need arises?

Just spit-balling there at the end, back to the point: The Federation is about embracing diversity, and I think the Klingons have that in spades, we just haven't seen as much of it as we have the Klingon military.

And if it's possible the Klingons could one day join the Federation, then anyone can.
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