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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old May 19 2014, 07:31 PM   #16
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

DS9forever wrote: View Post
The character wasn't that popular to warrant inclusion in a film.
Right. Because the previously unknown Romulan clone of Picard with a dubious and implausible backstory was so much more popular.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Sela wasn't Picard's nemesis
Technically, she was. Picard, after all, was the one who sent her mother to certain death at Narendra-III and who thwarted her efforts in the Klingon Civil War and the invasion of Vulcan. Shinzon's motivation actually fits better with Sela than it does for Shinzon: the Federation really DID abandon her and her mother, and Picard really screwed her over on two separate occasions.

And then there's Picard agonizing over Shinzon's unfortunate childhood and feeling all responsible for him. That sentiment earns a yawn if it's a clone he never knew about until now, but it would be a bit more powerful if the anguished Romulan adversary is actually the daughter of one of his former crewmembers, a woman whose existence he is actually responsible for (even if he doesn't remember it). If you consider the final scene on the Scimitar's bridge with Sela staring down Picard impaled on a pipe: for him, it would be like watching Tasha die all over again.

LOKAI of CHERON wrote: View Post
With all due, and genuine, respect to Denise Crosby, I don't think she's quite strong enough an actress to have pulled off a major guest starring role in a relatively high profile movie convincingly - particularly with the Sela character. Honestly, I think TPTB would have considered that had her name been even half seriously bandied about.
And yet, consider the alternative:




I'm not saying Sela would have been an awesome villain for Nemesis. I'm saying that the bar for this movie is already set so low that Sela could not possibly have been worse than Shinzon.
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Old May 19 2014, 08:03 PM   #17
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Personally, I think the writers/producers wanted to keep things accesible for non-fans. Which is absurd really, when you try and make a movie based on a tv-show, unless you do a complete reboot.
So, they decided on a new villian, instead of one from the show. I wonder how non-fans would react to Wrath Of Khan, having never seen the original series' episode it was inspired by.
Sure, it's easy for fans to say that the backstory was explained well enough for non-fans, but we know the backstory.

So yeah, I think it was about keeping things simple for non-fans, casual viewers.
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Old May 20 2014, 06:08 AM   #18
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
What's so implausible about it? Sela's father was a Romulan general by the time she was born. That might have enabled her to move quicker through the ranks, and "Balance of Terror" itself had suggested that good relations rather than actual performance were important.
"Balance of Terror" took place 100 years before Sela was born. If anything, Nemesis showed that regime changes on Romulus were commonplace, so what they did a century before would be irrelevant now. Even with the nepotism, I really have a hard time swallowing that this 21-year-old half-human girl would have been allowed to command a fleet of warbirds or be any kind of military leader.
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Old May 20 2014, 12:25 PM   #19
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
LOKAI of CHERON wrote: View Post
With all due, and genuine, respect to Denise Crosby, I don't think she's quite strong enough an actress to have pulled off a major guest starring role in a relatively high profile movie convincingly - particularly with the Sela character. Honestly, I think TPTB would have considered that had her name been even half seriously bandied about.
And yet, consider the alternative:




I'm not saying Sela would have been an awesome villain for Nemesis. I'm saying that the bar for this movie is already set so low that Sela could not possibly have been worse than Shinzon.
I can't comment on your Shinzon/Dr. Evil comparison as I've never seen the Austin Powers movies, nor do I have the slightest interest in doing so.

Tom Hardy's acting prowess is qualitatively superior to Denise Crosby IMHO. I believe it's probable Nemesis would've indeed been even worse had DC been given the major guest starring role as Sela - or whatever character.
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Old May 20 2014, 12:50 PM   #20
Robert Comsol
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
"Balance of Terror" took place 100 years before Sela was born. If anything, Nemesis showed that regime changes on Romulus were commonplace, so what they did a century before would be irrelevant now.
That's entirely conjectural speculation on your part.

"Balance of Terror" did establish that in Romulan society good connections to TPTB can outweigh rank and performance:

DECIUS: Only in code, Commander. To inform our Praetor of this glorious mission.
COMMANDER: Your carelessness might have ended this glorious mission. You're reduced two steps in rank. Return to post.
CENTURION: Take care, Commander. He has friends, and friends of his kind mean power. And power is danger.

There is no reason to assume that this has changed by the 24th Century, on the contrary Sela's young age with her father being a general strongly suggests that little or nothing has changed.

Bob
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Old May 20 2014, 03:35 PM   #21
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
"Balance of Terror" did establish that in Romulan society good connections to TPTB can outweigh rank and performance:

DECIUS: Only in code, Commander. To inform our Praetor of this glorious mission.
COMMANDER: Your carelessness might have ended this glorious mission. You're reduced two steps in rank. Return to post.
CENTURION: Take care, Commander. He has friends, and friends of his kind mean power. And power is danger.
If the above quote is your evidence that "good connections to TPTB can outweigh rank and performance," then I respectfully say that that's entirely conjectural speculation on your part. The way I read that quote, all it says is that Decius may get someone to enact retribution on the commander for reducing him in rank. It doesn't say anything about said friends helping him to rise up in rank.

There is no reason to assume that this has changed by the 24th Century, on the contrary Sela's young age with her father being a general strongly suggests that little or nothing has changed.
And that's also speculation on your part, as there was no evidence whatsoever that Sela got her position because of her father's influence. All she said was that he was influential enough to save Tasha from death.
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Old May 20 2014, 05:53 PM   #22
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
...it strains credibility to have Sela be 21 years old.
Given the lack of information, clues, hints or suggestions by canon regarding Romulan Society it doesn't.

BoT suggests that good connections outweigh age, rank and accomplishment (the whole scene is somewhat reminiscent of the situation aboard the HMS Defiant in "Damn the Defiant", where a younger officer poses a threat to an accomplished captain).

If anything, "Redemption II" re-emphasized that in the Romulan military you can climb the career ladder faster if you know the right people.

That's what I'd call continuity, not implausibility.

Bob
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Old May 20 2014, 07:42 PM   #23
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

^Then you either ignored or didn't read my post directly above yours. If you just ignored it, then I have nothing more to say to you on the matter. If you just didn't read it, please do.
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Old May 31 2014, 09:02 PM   #24
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Sela wasn't Picard's nemesis
Technically, she was.
Not even remotely in this story. As I said in the rest of my post, Picard's nemesis here was himself (in the cloned form of Shinzon).
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Old May 31 2014, 09:52 PM   #25
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

I'm not sure if I would have wanted Sela to make a comeback, especially as the main villain. Tying the story to something from the series would have been nice though, maybe to the events of "Unification". Nemesis wasted the opportunity to explore Romulan society further and pose some interesting moral questions about the status of the Remans.

One thing I've never understood about the TNG films is why they tried to aim for a general audience by trying to turn Picard and company into cliche action heroes fighting some villain. TNG was never really done justice on the big screen because of this. The most financially successful Star Trek film before ST:09 was the Voyage Home which didn't even have a villain or a single action scene. TNG as a TV series was slow and cerebral, full of people sitting around conference tables and spouting expository dialogue or discussing weighty moral issues.

The TNG films were niche productions with modest budgets and the only real audience were Star Trek fans. They just had to keep making Paramount money. They weren't 100 million dollar spectacles like the JJ films that had enormous pressure to reach the widest audience possible.
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Old June 1 2014, 04:18 AM   #26
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
If the above quote is your evidence that "good connections to TPTB can outweigh rank and performance," then I respectfully say that that's entirely conjectural speculation on your part. The way I read that quote, all it says is that Decius may get someone to enact retribution on the commander for reducing him in rank. It doesn't say anything about said friends helping him to rise up in rank.
The ability to punish somebody for demoting you -- especially if you got demoted for doing something careless -- implies the ability to punish someone for failing (or even hesitating) to promote you. This is actually a rather common problem in some businesses, where the boss' son/daughter/nephew lands a promotion he is in no way qualified for, not necessarily because the boss is pulling for him, but because the managers of that department are afraid of incurring the boss' wrath. This is even more true in corporate cultures where the boss' wrath is relatively easy to incur and department managers are prone to just roll over and let His Incompetent Progeny get away with bloody murder.

In a militaristic and highly competitive society like the Romulan Empire, Decius' "friends" are extremely likely to lose their shit over their buddy having a spat with his CO. The same danger you face by demoting him is the inherent danger in passing him over for promotion or giving him the most important assignment all the time so he can get promoted that much faster.

there was no evidence whatsoever that Sela got her position because of her father's influence. All she said was that he was influential enough to save Tasha from death.
He saved the ENTIRE CREW from death in exchange for Tasha's ass. That pretty much makes him a bigshot. We also see a similar situation later where a Romulan general is presiding over a camp of Klingon prisoners which he has made his own personal colony; he, too, is indicated to be kind of a bigshot for the Romulans to let that slide.

Actually, when you combine that with Saavik's putative half-Romulan heritage (plus her relatively young age) and a few other tales of Romulan atrocities, one wonders if the kidnapping and breeding of alien women isn't a pretty standard practice in the Imperium. It might just be a "spoils of war" thing, in which case Sela would be a high-ranking soldier mainly because the Empire would not have allowed her to ever grow up to be anything else: she's a child of an alien captive, which means she MUST be raised from birth to be a soldier, would have been trained in a military school since she was old enough to walk, would have had her first instruction in military history in grammar school. She'd be Romulan Hitler-Youth; by the time she's 21, she'll already have a pretty extensive career behind her.

That's still more speculation, of course, but with how little we actually know about them, what else can we do?
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Old June 1 2014, 05:14 AM   #27
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
In a militaristic and highly competitive society like the Romulan Empire, Decius' "friends" are extremely likely to lose their shit over their buddy having a spat with his CO. The same danger you face by demoting him is the inherent danger in passing him over for promotion or giving him the most important assignment all the time so he can get promoted that much faster.
But again, nobody outright mentioned anything about Decius getting promoted, just that he had friends that were "powerful" enough to possibly strike back at the commander in some unknown way as retribution.

He saved the ENTIRE CREW from death in exchange for Tasha's ass. That pretty much makes him a bigshot.
And how many of the entire crew were left? Five people? Ten? Who knows?

We also see a similar situation later where a Romulan general is presiding over a camp of Klingon prisoners which he has made his own personal colony; he, too, is indicated to be kind of a bigshot for the Romulans to let that slide.
The impression I got was that that particular commander was forced to maintain the colony or the prisoners would have been killed, and that he was doing it as a humanitarian gesture at the expense of his own career. That's coming more from a position of exasperation than power.

Actually, when you combine that with Saavik's putative half-Romulan heritage (plus her relatively young age) and a few other tales of Romulan atrocities, one wonders if the kidnapping and breeding of alien women isn't a pretty standard practice in the Imperium. It might just be a "spoils of war" thing, in which case Sela would be a high-ranking soldier mainly because the Empire would not have allowed her to ever grow up to be anything else: she's a child of an alien captive, which means she MUST be raised from birth to be a soldier, would have been trained in a military school since she was old enough to walk, would have had her first instruction in military history in grammar school. She'd be Romulan Hitler-Youth; by the time she's 21, she'll already have a pretty extensive career behind her.
I'd like to point out that not only has it never been canonically established that Saavik is half-Romulan, but that even if those lines of dialogue stating that stayed in TWOK, there was no context to it. For all we know one of Saavik's parents was simply a defector who sought sanctuary on Vulcan and got married to a native.
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Old June 2 2014, 05:42 PM   #28
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
But again, nobody outright mentioned anything about Decius getting promoted, just that he had friends that were "powerful" enough to possibly strike back at the commander in some unknown way as retribution.
Well, the issue was that Decius himself and without asking his superior had sent a message to inform the Praetor (!) about their "glorious mission", so it's safe to assume Decius wanted to be the bringer of good news hoping it would improve his career.

CENTURION: Take care, Commander. He has friends, and friends of his kind mean power. And power is danger.

Sounded to me like political power.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
He saved the ENTIRE CREW from death in exchange for Tasha's ass. That pretty much makes him a bigshot.
And how many of the entire crew were left? Five people? Ten? Who knows?
While we do not know how many crew members of the Enterprise-C did survive, Sela's father must have already been quite a bigshot in 2344 if he was able to snatch Tasha - in her uniform from the future - from the Tal Shiar.

(Come to think of it, Sela's account "They were all to have been executed after the interrogation, but a Romulan general saw her and became enamoured with her" suggests that the Romulans found nothing unusual about Tasha's uniform which just fits nicely with the alternate canon interpretation I presented based on "Redemption II" ).

Dukhat wrote: View Post
I'd like to point out that not only has it never been canonically established that Saavik is half-Romulan, but that even if those lines of dialogue stating that stayed in TWOK, there was no context to it. For all we know one of Saavik's parents was simply a defector who sought sanctuary on Vulcan and got married to a native.
Well, Vonda McIntyre's novelization was based on the original script or last draft of it and this one stated that Saavik had been imprisoned and mistreated by Romulans.

All that may not be canonically established, but it's the explanation why Saavik cries at the end of the film which you wouldn't expect from a properly trained and educated pure-blooded Vulcan woman.

Bob
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Old June 3 2014, 02:45 AM   #29
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Saavik's backstory as a Romulan/Vulcan hybrid from a Romulan breeding experiment camp is so well explored in the novelizations, original novels, comics...it may be official canon, but it's my canon.
I would've loved for Sela to have been in Nemesis. I could imagine her in the role of mentor to Shizon, and/or possibly his wife too. Sela is one of the most important Romulan characters in ST history, and her presence in Nemesis would've enhanced the story for me.
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Old June 3 2014, 04:30 AM   #30
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Re: Why no Sela in 'Nemesis'?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Well, the issue was that Decius himself and without asking his superior had sent a message to inform the Praetor (!) about their "glorious mission", so it's safe to assume Decius wanted to be the bringer of good news hoping it would improve his career.

CENTURION: Take care, Commander. He has friends, and friends of his kind mean power. And power is danger.

Sounded to me like political power.
But again, that's just your interpretation. Not saying there's anything wrong with that feeling, but the meaning of that line can be taken numerous ways and shouldn't be used as absolute proof about how Romulans rise in rank.

While we do not know how many crew members of the Enterprise-C did survive, Sela's father must have already been quite a bigshot in 2344 if he was able to snatch Tasha - in her uniform from the future - from the Tal Shiar.
The Tal Shiar? When was the Tal Shiar mentioned as having anything to do with this? And how would the Romulans automatically know Tasha's uniform was from the future unless she specifically told them where she came from? And if she did, I doubt that the Romulans would have let her be Sela's daddy's concubine or whatever the hell she was. Had they known she was from the future they would have interrogated her for the rest of her (short) life.

Well, Vonda McIntyre's novelization was based on the original script or last draft of it and this one stated that Saavik had been imprisoned and mistreated by Romulans.

All that may not be canonically established, but it's the explanation why Saavik cries at the end of the film which you wouldn't expect from a properly trained and educated pure-blooded Vulcan woman.
In the context of the film, that still has nothing to do with the possibility that she was from some Romulan/Vulcan breeding program, just that she's a young and inexperienced Vulcan/Starfleet officer. Her results from the Kobayashi Maru exercise attests to that. Just saying.

Saavik's backstory as a Romulan/Vulcan hybrid from a Romulan breeding experiment camp is so well explored in the novelizations, original novels, comics...it may be official canon, but it's my canon.
And that's fine. But since none of that made it into the films, and Saavik seemed later to be nothing more than a full-blooded Vulcan, then in the realm of personal canon it remains.
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