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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 29 2014, 05:21 PM   #31
Jeyl
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

BillJ wrote: View Post
If wanting to be entertained is a "backwards style of thinking" then I guess you're right.
We all have our own opinions and mine have nothing to do with whether people like this new Trek. Just because I say the direction of these films is backwards doesn't mean you're backwards in liking it.

I just think that if you're going to have a Star Trek that tackle things like gay characters or expanding on other characters' story that doesn't directly involve Kirk or Spock, this is not the Star Trek you want to do it in. Action is the name of the game and we've got to move at a lightning pace.

BillJ wrote: View Post
I can't remember an episode of TOS where Uhura had more than a couple of lines of relevant dialogue. As much as I love TOS, the Abrams version of Uhura is a more believable, more well-rounded character.
We are two films into this new take on Star Trek and we have yet to see Uhura's occupational skills turn out anything useful. She can speak Romulan in all three dialects, but the Romulans all speak English. She can speak Klingon, but all that does is put her in danger and needing to be rescued. About the only thing the writers can do for her character is whine about Spock and be the "action girl" with a gun. Giving her a gun to shoot bad guys with doesn't make her interesting.
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Old May 29 2014, 09:36 PM   #32
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Jeyl wrote: View Post

I think Star Trek: Deep Space Nine is still ahead of the game when it comes to gay characters... in Star Trek.
Indeed? Which characters were those?

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Old May 29 2014, 09:39 PM   #33
BizarroStormy
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Jeyl wrote: View Post


I just think that if you're going to have a Star Trek that tackle things like gay characters or expanding on other characters' story that doesn't directly involve Kirk or Spock, this is not the Star Trek you want to do it in. Action is the name of the game and we've got to move at a lightning pace.

Must we? STAR TREK is action and drama. STID was both, but story should be the first emphasis. We can slow down from time to time and take a breather to serve the story, which STID also did. But the more non-stop lightning you get, the more it reverts to just another cookie-cutter summer movie. STID transcended this with its political subtext. This may have limited its national grosses compared to 2009's TREK, but 2013's is still a more solid effort.
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Old May 29 2014, 09:50 PM   #34
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Jeyl wrote: View Post
I just think that if you're going to have a Star Trek that tackle things like gay characters or expanding on other characters' story that doesn't directly involve Kirk or Spock, this is not the Star Trek you want to do it in.
There's nothing to "tackle", all that's desperately needed in Trek is inclusion.
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Old May 30 2014, 08:04 AM   #35
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Nobody is advocating an hilarious comic relief character like the amoral Felix from Orphan Black or four angst-ridden Andorian men who want to adopt. A brief allusion to a character's sexuality - an embarrassed glance at Kirk in his underwear that parallels the Carol scene or a quick quip would be enough to raise a smile though.
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Old May 30 2014, 07:22 PM   #36
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Based on what Alice Eve mentioned about it, her characterization was written both as a generational conflict and a microcosm of the rift between Starfleet and Section Thirty One. Basically, Carol had a serious conflict with her father in a relationship that was otherwise very solid and uplifting until something happened that caused him to become all warped and evil. Her backstory would be as much about her disillusionment and lost of her father figure as the evolution of Alex's jingoistic fugue, and finally, Carol's ultimately futile quest to restore him to the man once was, "and should be again."
The female character fails to do something on her own? That's nothing new for JJ's Star Trek.
That's not what I meant, seeing how Alex Marcus was tragically irredeemable (or even if he wasn't, Khan decapitated him before he could be redeemed).

This feels like a reoccurring problem that the writers just can't seem to fix. They write these moments that are meant to expand the character's motivation and overall sense of purpose in the story, but when the film is being edited, all that stuff is marginalized to just being a point in the story. Yeah, they may get the point across, but that all it will end up being. A simple, barely touched on point that's moved to the side and forgotten about later on.
I noticed that too. I think a similar thing happened with Nero's background in the first film, with all of the Rura Penthe material being removed (going deep into how he spent 25 years being tortured by the Klingons, causing an already crazy person to become even crazier). It's too their credit that the editors were smart enough to keep the character moments for Kirk and Spock in the first movie, but in STID I think they severely dropped the ball on Carol Marcus and they could have afforded another seven or eight minutes of footage to get into that a bit more.

Still, that's movies for you. If you want great character development over a long timeframe, that fits better in a TV series or a novel.

Why does it feel like this is the exact opposite approach with these new films?
Probably because there IS no director's edition of STID and much of the deleted footage for both of those movies never saw the light of day.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I can't remember an episode of TOS where Uhura had more than a couple of lines of relevant dialogue. As much as I love TOS, the Abrams version of Uhura is a more believable, more well-rounded character.
We are two films into this new take on Star Trek and we have yet to see Uhura's occupational skills turn out anything useful.
She manages to penetrate Marcus' jamming and get a signal to New Vulcan.

She manages to intercept and translate the message in the first film that leads Kirk to realize the "distress signal" from Vulcan is actually a trap.

She speaks Klingon (unlike Uhura Prime) and almost manages to negotiate with them before their "Kill the wabbit" instincts reassert themselves.

She can speak Klingon, but all that does is put her in danger and needing to be rescued.
You seem to be forgetting that it was KHAN that came to the rescue, and even in that case he merely distracted the Klingon soldier while Uhura pulled his dagger and stabbed him in the balls.

About the only thing the writers can do for her character is whine about Spock and be the "action girl" with a gun. Giving her a gun to shoot bad guys with doesn't make her interesting.
Not at all. She has actually become a foil for Spock, a passionate (and compassionate) counter-balance to his cold logical mind. At the same time, when Spock looses his emotional control she plays the opposite role, stepping in to put him back on track.

What's a lot more interesting (and what you, like most people, overlook) is how Uhura deals with Spock's Vulcan aspect. She understands that he has to control his emotions, as that is te Vulcan way; in STID, this understanding is put on full display in Mudd's shuttle and is actually reinforced in the resolution. It's not just some odd thing about him that she accepts, it's something she has come to embrace as central to his personality.

Compare that with Uhura's conversation in "The Man Trap:"


SPOCK: Miss Uhura, your last sub-space log contained an error in the frequencies column.
UHURA: Mister Spock, sometimes I think if I hear that word frequency once more, I'll cry.
SPOCK: Cry?
UHURA: I was just trying to start a conversation.
SPOCK: Well, since it is illogical for a communications officer to resent the word frequency, I have no answer.
UHURA: No, you have an answer. I'm an illogical woman who's beginning to feel too much a part of that communications console. Why don't you tell me I'm an attractive young lady, or ask me if I've ever been in love? Tell me how your planet Vulcan looks on a lazy evening when the moon is full.
SPOCK: Vulcan has no moon, Miss Uhura.
UHURA: I'm not surprised, Mister Spock.

^ It seems to me that the bar is set pretty low as far as Spock/Uhura relations, but I think that their current dynamic is actually a TREMENDOUS improvement.
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Old May 30 2014, 11:26 PM   #37
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

^THIS.
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Old May 31 2014, 01:56 AM   #38
Ovation
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Based on what Alice Eve mentioned about it, her characterization was written both as a generational conflict and a microcosm of the rift between Starfleet and Section Thirty One. Basically, Carol had a serious conflict with her father in a relationship that was otherwise very solid and uplifting until something happened that caused him to become all warped and evil. Her backstory would be as much about her disillusionment and lost of her father figure as the evolution of Alex's jingoistic fugue, and finally, Carol's ultimately futile quest to restore him to the man once was, "and should be again."
The female character fails to do something on her own? That's nothing new for JJ's Star Trek.
That's not what I meant, seeing how Alex Marcus was tragically irredeemable (or even if he wasn't, Khan decapitated him before he could be redeemed).

I noticed that too. I think a similar thing happened with Nero's background in the first film, with all of the Rura Penthe material being removed (going deep into how he spent 25 years being tortured by the Klingons, causing an already crazy person to become even crazier). It's too their credit that the editors were smart enough to keep the character moments for Kirk and Spock in the first movie, but in STID I think they severely dropped the ball on Carol Marcus and they could have afforded another seven or eight minutes of footage to get into that a bit more.

Still, that's movies for you. If you want great character development over a long timeframe, that fits better in a TV series or a novel.

Probably because there IS no director's edition of STID and much of the deleted footage for both of those movies never saw the light of day.


She manages to penetrate Marcus' jamming and get a signal to New Vulcan.

She manages to intercept and translate the message in the first film that leads Kirk to realize the "distress signal" from Vulcan is actually a trap.

She speaks Klingon (unlike Uhura Prime) and almost manages to negotiate with them before their "Kill the wabbit" instincts reassert themselves.

She can speak Klingon, but all that does is put her in danger and needing to be rescued.
You seem to be forgetting that it was KHAN that came to the rescue, and even in that case he merely distracted the Klingon soldier while Uhura pulled his dagger and stabbed him in the balls.

About the only thing the writers can do for her character is whine about Spock and be the "action girl" with a gun. Giving her a gun to shoot bad guys with doesn't make her interesting.
Not at all. She has actually become a foil for Spock, a passionate (and compassionate) counter-balance to his cold logical mind. At the same time, when Spock looses his emotional control she plays the opposite role, stepping in to put him back on track.

What's a lot more interesting (and what you, like most people, overlook) is how Uhura deals with Spock's Vulcan aspect. She understands that he has to control his emotions, as that is te Vulcan way; in STID, this understanding is put on full display in Mudd's shuttle and is actually reinforced in the resolution. It's not just some odd thing about him that she accepts, it's something she has come to embrace as central to his personality.

Compare that with Uhura's conversation in "The Man Trap:"


SPOCK: Miss Uhura, your last sub-space log contained an error in the frequencies column.
UHURA: Mister Spock, sometimes I think if I hear that word frequency once more, I'll cry.
SPOCK: Cry?
UHURA: I was just trying to start a conversation.
SPOCK: Well, since it is illogical for a communications officer to resent the word frequency, I have no answer.
UHURA: No, you have an answer. I'm an illogical woman who's beginning to feel too much a part of that communications console. Why don't you tell me I'm an attractive young lady, or ask me if I've ever been in love? Tell me how your planet Vulcan looks on a lazy evening when the moon is full.
SPOCK: Vulcan has no moon, Miss Uhura.
UHURA: I'm not surprised, Mister Spock.

^ It seems to me that the bar is set pretty low as far as Spock/Uhura relations, but I think that their current dynamic is actually a TREMENDOUS improvement.
Well stated.
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Old May 31 2014, 07:36 PM   #39
Malaika
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Do you remember an episode where Uhura was a constant whiner about her relationship with Spock in the original series?
rhetoric.
Spock and Uhura didn't have a relationship in the original series (guess why)
however, that didn't stop her from flirting with him on the bridge while they were working and he was the acting captain, and then a moment later she basically called him out on his s**t because Spock was too cold and didn't seem to care about one of his crewmates dying.



She slept around with her freaking Academy instructor and complains to him when she doesn't get selected for the best ship in the fleet.
I think you're mistaking Uhura for Kirk
Uhura does have an exclusive emotional relationship with Spock. Big difference. But if to you their interactions suggest he's just one of the many she's having casual sex with, I don't know what to tell you, honestly, but doesn't seem to me the problem is exactly the writers here.

as for her 'whining': it's funny because Kirk was 'whining' and complaining about Spock way more than Uhura in that movie
Uhura's concern that her boyfriend might possibly have a death wish should be the least surprising thing. If you think that Kirk is entitled to have his own feelings when it comes to complaining about Spock being.. himself or him not getting friendship, then I can't see why you should have a problem with Uhura having agency and being allowed to speak her mind and express her feelings when it comes to someone she, actually, has a relationship with and who might have a freaking death wish.


Your complains about the scene where Uhura is assigned to the enterprise might hide a bit a double standard too. First: it is obvious in the scene that she had worked hard to get on the enterprise and the only reason Spock changed her assignment was because he was overcompensating to 'avoid the appearance of favoritism'. Second: when all is said and done, you have a Kirk who wasn't assigned or supposed to get on any ship, to begin with, but his best friend abused his position to sneak him aboard the best ship (and even infected him with a virus)
Also friendly reminder that Uhura, unlike some of the guys there, was promoted to chief communications officer because of her skills alone and because she was more qualified than the previous officer, surely not because the other officer was sick or dead or because Pike was her mentor.
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Old May 31 2014, 07:47 PM   #40
Ovation
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Malaika wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
Do you remember an episode where Uhura was a constant whiner about her relationship with Spock in the original series?
rhetoric.
Spock and Uhura didn't have a relationship in the original series (guess why)
however, that didn't stop her from flirting with him on the bridge while they were working and he was the acting captain, and then a moment later she basically called him out on his s**t because Spock was too cold and didn't seem to care about one of his crewmates dying.



She slept around with her freaking Academy instructor and complains to him when she doesn't get selected for the best ship in the fleet.
I think you're mistaking Uhura for Kirk
Uhura does have an exclusive emotional relationship with Spock. Big difference. But if to you their interactions suggest he's just one of the many she's having casual sex with, I don't know what to tell you, honestly, but doesn't seem to me the problem is exactly the writers here.

as for her 'whining': it's funny because Kirk was 'whining' and complaining about Spock way more than Uhura in that movie
Uhura's concern that her boyfriend might possibly have a death wish should be the least surprising thing. If you think that Kirk is entitled to have his own feelings when it comes to complaining about Spock being.. himself or him not getting friendship, then I can't see why you should have a problem with Uhura having agency and being allowed to speak her mind and express her feelings when it comes to someone she, actually, has a relationship with and who might have a freaking death wish.


Your complains about the scene where Uhura is assigned to the enterprise might hide a bit a double standard too. First: it is obvious in the scene that she had worked hard to get on the enterprise and the only reason Spock changed her assignment was because he was overcompensating to 'avoid the appearance of favoritism'. Second: when all is said and done, you have a Kirk who wasn't assigned or supposed to get on any ship, to begin with, but his best friend abused his position to sneak him aboard the best ship (and even infected him with a virus)
Also friendly reminder that Uhura, unlike some of the guys there, was promoted to chief communications officer because of her skills alone and because she was more qualified than the previous officer, surely not because the other officer was sick or dead or because Pike was her mentor.
But, but, Uhura is only eye-candy with no other redeeming traits in the Abrams films. How can you suggest she's important and acting in a complex and interesting fashion? It's almost as if you're saying Uhura's not the one-dimensional cartoon depicted by so many members of the Committee for the Way Things Ought to Be (TM). Surely that can't be right?

(in other words--excellent post)
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Old June 5 2014, 02:12 PM   #41
Jeyl
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post

I think Star Trek: Deep Space Nine is still ahead of the game when it comes to gay characters... in Star Trek.
Indeed? Which characters were those?

How about "The Emperor's New Cloak"? Not only does Mirror Ezri and Mirror Kira kiss on screen, but that not-so-subtle hint of attraction between Mirror Ezri and Mirror Leeta at the end certainly does more to include gay/bisexual characters than anything this NuTrek has done.
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Old June 5 2014, 03:57 PM   #42
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

I'm sure everyone can attest to the fact that all this points about Uhura doing stuff in the previous movie I've argued almost as long as I've been on this forum. She's not promoted to chief communications officer, she just relieved an officer only had to try listening in in order to keep his station. Figuring out that Klingon signal may be nice, but in no way does the film show her thinking it was anything important outside of dorm room chatter. She's there for Kirk's benefit. And I still say she slowed Spock down in rescuing the Vulcan council and his family that lead to his mother's death. If only he had two extra seconds.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Compare that with Uhura's conversation in "The Man Trap:"

SPOCK: Miss Uhura, your last sub-space log contained an error in the frequencies column.
UHURA: Mister Spock, sometimes I think if I hear that word frequency once more, I'll cry.
SPOCK: Cry?
UHURA: I was just trying to start a conversation.
SPOCK: Well, since it is illogical for a communications officer to resent the word frequency, I have no answer.
UHURA: No, you have an answer. I'm an illogical woman who's beginning to feel too much a part of that communications console. Why don't you tell me I'm an attractive young lady, or ask me if I've ever been in love? Tell me how your planet Vulcan looks on a lazy evening when the moon is full.
SPOCK: Vulcan has no moon, Miss Uhura.
UHURA: I'm not surprised, Mister Spock.

^ It seems to me that the bar is set pretty low as far as Spock/Uhura relations, but I think that their current dynamic is actually a TREMENDOUS improvement.
So a scene between a serious Spock and a playful Uhura is nothing compared to Uhura stabbing Klingons in the balls. Forgive me if I don't share your idea of low bar standards, but it takes more to make a character like Uhura interesting than having her be an action girl who also happens to be one of the lead male character's girlfriend. Yeah, she can shoot bad guys, but so can anyone else.
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Old June 8 2014, 12:18 PM   #43
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Jeyl wrote: View Post
She's not promoted to chief communications officer, she just relieved an officer only had to try listening in in order to keep his station.

Care to share with us where you took this information from?
and, lol, are you actually saying that she's not the chief communications officer? ....

Figuring out that Klingon signal may be nice, but in no way does the film show her thinking it was anything important
outside of dorm room chatter. She's there for Kirk's benefit. And I still say she slowed Spock down in rescuing the Vulcan council and his family that lead to his mother's death. If only he had two extra seconds.
with all due respect here, and I get that you despise her, but you're reaching now.

and I can't believe you're even blaming her for the death of his mother. It's crazy. Aside from the fact that asking the acting captain why he's abandoning his post and the ship is a legit question that any officer there had the right to make. Aside from the fact that Spock is the one who chose to reply to her. Aside from the fact that Kirk also asked him what the heck he wanted to do and using your logic he slowed Spock down too. Only difference being that he gave more attention to his girlfriend but didn't care to give Kirk or others any explanation whatsoever for his behavior and this further shows that if he replied to Uhura and slowed down by those 'two precious seconds' it's because he wanted to.
Also, after those 'two extra seconds with Uhura' why it took Spock so long to reach the transport pad anyway? What he did in between those scenes that slowed him down so much? It took him longer, off screen, to get there than the S/U interaction in total. Using your logic, he's then responsible of his mother's death because it took him too long to reach the transport bay, for whatever reason that has nothing to do with his previous interaction with Uhura that had already happened.

Are you also blaming poor Chekov because he wasn't fast enough and he 'couldn't do zat' for Amanda the way he did for Kirk and Sulu when he saved them?
And what to say about Sarek? Was his decision to go to the katric instead of, IDK, take a shuttle and leave the damn place and planet the most wise choice to protect his wife? Or is him responsible for her death and because their son had to beam down, putting himself in danger too, to smack some sense into them and take them out of there?
For such a logical race, the choice of those vulcans was well, pretty illogical.
Spock asked Uhura to alert the vulcans so they knew that their planet had minutes left. Why the heck they went to the katric ark instead of leaving the place? Was Sarek ready to die and take his wife with him? Is that the reason why Spock panicked? Because he knew that some vulcans, including his father, wouldn't try to save themselves?

and you're blaming Uhura because she asked her captain why he was abandoning the ship in the middle of a crisis? When Spock shouldn't even need to leave the damn ship, in the first place, had his parents and the other vulcans there been a tad more logical like they claim to be.
Not even taking into consideration the fact that you're talking about two people who have feelings for one another and they can't even possibly say goodbye in that scene. Yet, you still complain for their dignified interaction and you expect them to just ignore each other when they both knew he could have died trying to save his parents?
Also, for all the claims I often read that the Spock/Uhura relationship came out of nowhere in the turbolift scene and that the writers should have provided more clues previously, I find it curious that, yet, all the clues they obviously put prior that scene that these two were, in fact, close, either get ignored or are dismissed for being unnecessary for the narrative and the characters.


I wonder if you're one of those who also believes she forced herself on him later when HE - as per script - kissed her on that transport pad and put his hand on her butt. Wouldn't surprise me if you did...

Again, not sure if the writers are really the problem here... or if perhaps it's just your own biases against the character displayed by your nitpicking everything related to her. Not to mention your obvious double standard and possible sexism. I mean, it is a bit telling to me that of all these characters you single out the only female character in a crew of dudes where, judging by your standards for Uhura, I struggle to believe you can like them or find them that useful for the plot or well developed and professional.
It's also not a wonder to me that you seem to prefer Tos Uhura who was, on Nichelle Nichols own admission and complain, a very underdeveloped character due to the context of a show from the 60s where sexism and racism were rampant. Nichelle literally didn't even have a contract like the other cast members and she almost left the show because her lines kept getting cut (part of the blame also goes to Shatner who, allegedly - but confirmed by George Takei too -, stole lines and camera focus from the secondary characters)

I just think about Nichelle Uhura using a dictionary to speak klingon or her doing, as her only contribution to a mission, a nude fandance to distract some guys. I think about how Nichelle made her a linguist but it was never really showed in canon before the reboot, same for her first name.
I think about a female character, tos Uhura, who was never allowed to be a love interest because she's black and thus any romantic interaction had to be forced and she had her agency taken from her
e.g., the Kirk/Uhura kiss from the series as well as that Scotty/Uhura thing from STV when she's under Sybok's influence and then the writers pretend it never happened. The novelization and comics being the only sources that gave to that plot an explanation and closure (in that Scotty was just a friend and what Sybok manipulated and took advantage of was the fact that she felt damn alone and a part of her regretted having focused her whole existence on her career only when she could have tried to have both that and a family)

to see someone who proposes tos Uhura as better developed and nitpicks about reboot Uhura seems, honestly, a joke to me. I have to question if you cared about the character that much (and if you didn't it would be totally fine, I'm just criticizing, eventually, the way you seem to disguise it as other stuff)
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