RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,570
Posts: 5,402,661
Members: 24,865
Currently online: 532
Newest member: shyrim

TrekToday headlines

October-November 2014 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Cho Selfie TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

TPTB To Shatner: Shhh!
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Mystery Mini Vinyl Figure Display Box
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

The Red Shirt Diaries Episode Five
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

Shatner In Trek 3? Well Maybe
By: T'Bonz on Sep 28

Retro Review: Shadows and Symbols
By: Michelle on Sep 27

Meyer: Revitalizing Star Trek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 26

Trek Costumes To Be Auctioned
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25

Hulu Snaps up Abrams-Produced Drama
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 27 2014, 12:04 AM   #16
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

I think that what you were seeing on Ardana was basically a economic class system. The upper crust, the rich and the ruling leadership live in the cloud city. The miners were a part of the society's lower class, or possible the lower middle class.

There were others in their society, artists, artisans, police, servants, farmers. Someone built that city, I doubt it was the wealthy. Someone invented the anti-gravity that placed it in the sky.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2014, 12:31 AM   #17
urbandefault
Captain
 
urbandefault's Avatar
 
Location: Chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie!
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

Minimum requirements for membership would include an inherent love of Mexican food and barbecue, and fire. For grilling steaks. And livestock. For making barbecue and steaks.

Other things necessary for membership would be large coolers for beer, and the capacity and ability to build giant margaritas for mass consumption.
__________________
"GARY BUSEY!" - Gary Busey
urbandefault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2014, 11:27 AM   #18
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Lots of that sweet, sweet dilithium.
I think that's neither correct or fair. From "Journey to Babel":

Captain's log, Stardate 3842.4. The interplanetary conference will consider the petition of the Coridan planets to be admitted to the Federation. The Coridan system has been claimed by some of the races now aboard our ship as delegates, races who have strong personal reasons for keeping Coridan out of the Federation.

SAREK: Under Federation law, Coridan can be protected and its wealth administered for the benefit of its people. Coridan has nearly unlimited wealth of dilithium crystals, but it is under-populated and unprotected. This invites illegal mining operations.

Essentially, the Coridan planets had asked for protection, not exploitatation.

And in the Tellun star system the Federation had offered mediation between Elas and Troyius. Apparently, unlike the Klingons, the Federation didn't even have a clue that there were deposits of dilithium crystals in that star system.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2014, 03:34 PM   #19
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

Dilithium was Star Trek's petroleum, if an area has it, the rule book goes out the window.



T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2014, 07:30 PM   #20
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

^^ Obviously some Federation members like the Tellarites did their own illegal mining but other than that, can you please provide an example?

Here is another example ("Mirror, Mirror"), that the rule book did not go out of the window:

THARN: We accept that your Federation is benevolent at present, but the future is always in question. Our dilithium crystals represent awesome power. Wrongful use of that power, even to the extent of the taking of one life, would violate our history of total peace. To prevent that, we would die, Captain. As a race, if necessary.
KIRK: I admire your ethics and hope to prove ours.
THARN: The council will meditate further, but do not be hopeful of any change. Captain, you do have the might to force the crystals from us, of course.
KIRK: But we won't. Consider that.


Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2014, 08:09 PM   #21
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
^^ Obviously some Federation members like the Tellarites did their own illegal mining but other than that, can you please provide an example?
With valuable resources in general,

Fridays Child, a prewarp society with pretty rocks, no PD.
Horta Planet, a prewarp society (after the eggs hatch) with pretty rocks, no PD.
Mirror Mirror, were the Halkons prewarp? Anyway no PD.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2014, 09:12 PM   #22
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Fridays Child, a prewarp society with pretty rocks, no PD.
PD probably suspended because of Organian Peace Treaty. Unless you feel the Klingons are entitled to do the cultural damage of the indigenous society while the UFP is not.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Horta Planet, a prewarp society (after the eggs hatch) with pretty rocks, no PD.
Regardless how the PD would deal with non-humanoid sentient beings, it was obvious that they didn't know that they were dealing with a lifeform.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mirror Mirror, were the Halkons prewarp? Anyway no PD.
You could probably add the indigenous societies from "A Private Little War" and "The Omega Glory".

This just illustrates why I usually don't like this retroactive continuity BS. Suddenly "prewarp" status has become the benchmark by which to retroactively judge whether our TOS protagonists did violate the PD or not.

I hope I'm not the only one who considers that the TOS producers had something other than this "prewarp" stuff in mind. Spock's concerns in "Errand of Mercy" suggested that the UFP considered the impact on a medieval society as considerate.

Other than that, contact between Starfleet personnel and "prewarp" indigenous cultures wasn't prohibited by the TOS era PD per se.
The major issue was not to reveal superior technology to a less advanced culture. This became clear in "A Piece of the Action" (transtater field equipment forgotten by McCoy), "A Private Little War" ("use of our phasers is expressly forbidden") and "The Omega Glory" ("Interesting that the villagers know about phasers.").

Kirk's log entry in "The Omega Glory" follows Spock's observation (there's not much else they learned in the short amount of time):

"A growing belief that Captain Tracey has been interfering with the evolution of life on this planet. It seems impossible. A star captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive."

Put simply, the TOS PD wasn't about "prewarp" but about concealing phaser or superior technology in general.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2014, 09:16 PM   #23
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

Canonically, the criteria are vague. We know that Federation Members have to have a unified planetary government ("Attached") and must ban caste-based discrimination ("Accession"). Given the various references to a society's "maturity," I suspect it is safe to infer that Federation Member candidates must have achieved the kinds of social progress outlined as Earth's accomplishments after First Contact in ST:FC: Abolition of war and poverty, improved health care, etc.

Personally, if I'm writing the Articles of the Federation, my criteria would be:

- Presence of a unified government encompassing at least one planetary surface if a planet-based society
- Presence of a unified government encompassing the culture's entire territory if the society is not primarily planet-based (a society of astroid colonies, for instance)
- Minimum and maximum population levels, to ensure relative equality of representation on the Federation Council
- Government must be a constitutional liberal democracy (meaning, it must function according to law, it must guarantee certain inalienable rights, and it must obtain a democratic mandate which regularly expires and must be renewed)
- Universal adult suffrage
- Maintenance of a welfare state ensuring minimum wealth for all citizens and residents
- Maximum limit to the amount of wealth any citizen or resident may accumulate to prevent the evolution of an oligarchy
- Presence of either an advanced social democratic economy (capitalism with strong socialist programs to curb excess inequality) or a democratic market socialist economy (socialism with capitalist traits to curb excesses), both designed to minimize economic oppression
- Adoption of a strong program of ecological sustainability in the functioning of the economy and of technology, or serious attempts thereof
- Absence of social structures built around or perpetuating privilege, racism, bigotry, sexism, heterosexism, classism, religious oppression, or other forms of oppression
- Renunciation of militarism, jingoism, or other forms of war-mongering
- History of social policies of serious reparations and restitution if such oppressions have existed in the past
- Overall a relatively egalitarian social order
- Presence of a strong mechanism to enforce and protect civil rights and liberties
- Presence of a vibrant civil society
- Absence of any form of slavery or forced labor
- Presumption of innocence in criminal cases
- Absence of capital punishment
- Willingness to abide by the Guarantees of the Federation Constitution

Of course, there's the question of just what the Guarantees of the Federation Constitution actually consist of.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2014, 09:20 PM   #24
George Steinbrenner
Fleet Admiral
 
George Steinbrenner's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View George Steinbrenner's Twitter Profile
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

It seems clear that a culture doesn't actually have to use, or even have, warp technology. If it's aware of the existence of same, that appears to be enough.

For example: the Ba'ku in Insurrection. They obviously had no starships or warp drive in active use, but they knew about those things anyway. And hidden away somewhere they still did have stores of technology (which they used to try and fix Data).

Who knows, the same thing might have applied to the Capellans. They clearly knew enough to receive alien visitors and negotiate with them. So it could be that in some cavern somewhere, they had some kind of technological base...
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
George Steinbrenner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2014, 09:24 PM   #25
drt
Commander
 
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Warp capability was a retcon concept and frankly I'm wondering if that was a TOS requirement when I actually look at Gideon or Ardana.

* snip *

OTOH I could imagine both planets having invented satellite technology or the like enabling them to detect warp drive travel of others, which IMHO would equally justify a first contact encounter.
This is how I tend think about it.

Particularly since it seems like if the galaxy were as crowded as Star Trek's seems to be, any civilization reaching an early-to-mid 21st century level of development should be capable of detection of all kinds of transmissions showing life on other planets.
drt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2014, 06:23 PM   #26
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
It seems clear that a culture doesn't actually have to use, or even have, warp technology. If it's aware of the existence of same, that appears to be enough.
Obtaining warp drive technology might force the issue when it comes to first contact, determining if a culture has discovered subspace radio might be harder to figure out, especially if they listening, but not talking.

If there is a interstellar version of the internet, just having the subspace radio would be ... interesting.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
PD probably suspended because of Organian Peace Treaty. Unless you feel the Klingons are entitled to do the cultural damage of the indigenous society while the UFP is not.
Adherance to the PD should not depend on "everyone else" also doing so. The PD only applies to Starfleet (maybe the entire Federation too), the fact that people outside of Starfleet have their own rules, or none at all, should not effect Starfleet's observance.

Regardless how the PD would deal with non-humanoid sentient beings, it was obvious that they didn't know that they were dealing with a lifeform.
I was referring to after it was discovered that the Horta species were "people." The end of the episode contained no mention of the miners being require to evacuate the planet. The planet ample supply of pretty rocks superceded the PD's non-interferance stipulation.

This just illustrates why I usually don't like this retroactive continuity BS.
My personal take is that the PD isn't simplistic, there are conditions when it applies and when there are exceptions. Also I see it changing periodically, being reinterpeted by Starfleet Command, the Federation Council treating it as a political football. Starship Captains might get weekly updates.

Sci wrote: View Post
Canonically, the criteria are vague. We know that Federation Members have to have a unified planetary government ("Attached") and must ban caste-based discrimination ("Accession").
I wonder if those were always entry requirements, or were both introduced sometime in the mid 24th century ... and how long would they last?

As the Federation grew, and new and different cultures became a part of the mix, the Federation surely changed. It's internal policies altering over time.


Last edited by T'Girl; May 28 2014 at 06:36 PM.
T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2014, 06:46 PM   #27
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
PD probably suspended because of Organian Peace Treaty. Unless you feel the Klingons are entitled to do the cultural damage of the indigenous society while the UFP is not.
Adherance to the PD should not depend on "everyone else" also doing so. The PD only applies to Starfleet (maybe the entire Federation too), the fact that people outside of Starfleet have their own rules, or none at all, should not effect Starfleet's observance.
I agree that just because somebody else is doing something, shouldn't be the excuse for oneself doing the same thing.

OTOH, it's of little use for the indigenous culture you want to protect with the PD, if the Klingons are messing it up and usually much worse than the Federation would do.

But I agree that in "Friday's Child" the Federation posture is somewhat "pre-emptive" and therefore quite debatable. IMHO, they should have left the indigenous population alone, until they could have verified Klingon presence.

I'd like to recommend the Prime Directive article at Memory Alpha which I feel is very well written and researched and discusses the various cases in detail.

And it makes it pretty clear that "prewarp" or not was never an issue for TOS (If they felt by TNG's 24th Century that "prewarp" capability should be a first contact factor, possibly adopted from the Vulcans, it definitely was not an issue in the TOS era).

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2014, 07:02 PM   #28
Alrik
Rear Admiral
 
Alrik's Avatar
 
Location: Alrik is on A deck chair, somewhere....
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
A valid driver's license and a drug test.
Don't forget the background checks. You have to have the background checks.
__________________
When I grow up, I want to be just like you. But different.
Alrik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2014, 07:09 PM   #29
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

Of course entry requirements might change over time so caste based socities might have been permitted in the 23rd century ie.e Ardana. But following the events the Enterprise encountered on their, the UFP might have reviewed their policy on it and by the 24th Cenury caste based socities weren't permitted.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2014, 08:15 PM   #30
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: What should be the minimal requirements for Federation members?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
A valid driver's license
Unless you want to vote in a election, then you can be Mr. Anonymous and vote as many time as you please.








.

Last edited by T'Girl; May 29 2014 at 12:48 AM.
T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:57 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.