RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,549
Posts: 5,422,124
Members: 24,805
Currently online: 407
Newest member: Dylancute

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10

Quinto In The Slap
By: T'Bonz on Sep 9

Burton On Shatner’s Brown Bag Wine Tasting
By: T'Bonz on Sep 9

New Trek Trading Card Series
By: T'Bonz on Sep 8

New Red Shirt Diaries Episode
By: T'Bonz on Sep 8


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 23 2014, 05:35 PM   #16
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: Writing Women

Forbin wrote: View Post
How was Seven a decent female character in any way?
Unless you like a deus ex machina with enormous boobs wearing little more than body paint, then there really is nothing else to the character.

Trek does have some issues with writing strong women, often falling back on some old stereotypes, or having them there for obvious titillation. Worst still is when a female character really has no function or purpose unless hinged on a man--for example Kes was little more the Neelix's "girlfriend" at the beginning of VOY (the creepiest relationship in all of Trek), and now we have NuUhura's main function is as NuSpock's partner (where she does prove to be annoying, bitchy, whiny and totally uninteresting).

However, when the writers get it right, they do it very well indeed. For me, Kira Nerys was a strong, multi-layered and dynamic character, who grew, matured and developed significantly over time. She was tough as nails but also suffering from some deep emotional scars, whilst still having moments of being very feminine. Even when she and Odo get together, she still stands on her own as a character. But then again I am a little bias, being a big Niner and an even bigger Kira fan.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 23 2014, 06:09 PM   #17
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: Writing Women

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
However, when the writers get it right, they do it very well indeed. For me, Kira Nerys was a strong, multi-layered and dynamic character, who grew, matured and developed significantly over time. She was tough as nails but also suffering from some deep emotional scars, whilst still having moments of being very feminine.
Agreed 110%!
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 23 2014, 06:15 PM   #18
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: Writing Women

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

On paper, she was a good character. But it was totally ruined by the decision to pointlessly sex her up.
Sex her up was on the paper, too.
When I say on paper, I mean without the visuals.

Unless the script said "REVEAL big breasted blonde in skintight catsuit."
I'm sure the visuals were in place before the script. She was never going to be just a Borg who goes "good".
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 23 2014, 10:37 PM   #19
Trekker4747
Fleet Admiral
 
Trekker4747's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City
Re: Writing Women

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

On paper, she was a good character. But it was totally ruined by the decision to pointlessly sex her up.
Sex her up was on the paper, too.
When I say on paper, I mean without the visuals.

Unless the script said "REVEAL big breasted blonde in skintight catsuit."
I wouldn't have put it past Braga to write just that.
__________________
Out of hope.
Trekker4747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 24 2014, 02:30 AM   #20
QuarkforNagus
Lieutenant
 
QuarkforNagus's Avatar
 
Re: Writing Women

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
What constitutes annoying, bitchy and/or whiny?
Belanna, Kira, Luwaxanna Troi, Vash, Ro, Janeway.

Dax doesn't count. She's both man and woman.
QuarkforNagus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 24 2014, 02:35 AM   #21
Gov Kodos
Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Writing Women

QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
What constitutes annoying, bitchy and/or whiny?
Belanna, Kira, Luwaxanna Troi, Vash, Ro, Janeway.
What makes them annoying, bitchy and/or whiny?

QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
Dax doesn't count. She's both man and woman.
Both? Why does this male aspect make her not count as annoying, bitchy and/or whiny?
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 24 2014, 02:47 AM   #22
QuarkforNagus
Lieutenant
 
QuarkforNagus's Avatar
 
Re: Writing Women

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
What makes them annoying, bitchy and/or whiny?
Bellana is always crying about some thing or another. Nothing anyone does is ever good enough for her and the whole crew seems to go to great lengths to avoid having to deal with her. She's rude and self-centred.

Kira is similar to Bellana. She's always trying to start a fight. It's understandable to some degree given her experience with the Occupation, but it's still fucking annoying.

Luwaxanna is obsessed with finding a man for herself and her boring kid. It's kind of disappointing to see a female character whose whole existence on the show seems to be about attracting a man.

Vash - basically Dennis the Menace.

Ro - see Kira

Janeway - Janeway spends all this time shutting down people who question her opinion only to realize at the end that she was in the wrong. There are too many of these kinds of episodes and the common thread in them is Janeway. You don't see this kind of shit happening on a consistent basis with any other captain.

Why does this male aspect make her not count as annoying, bitchy and/or whiny?
I'm not a fan of Dax. I don't think she's any of these things. I actually think she's kind of boring. But I don't attribute that to her gender as she doesn't have one specific gender.
QuarkforNagus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 24 2014, 02:55 AM   #23
The Wormhole
Admiral
 
The Wormhole's Avatar
 
Re: Writing Women

QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
I'm not a fan of Dax. I don't think she's any of these things. I actually think she's kind of boring. But I don't attribute that to her gender as she doesn't have one specific gender.
No, actually. Both Jadzia Dax and Ezri Dax are 100% female. They just contain a slug in their bellies which share with them the lifetimes and memories several men, as well as several other women.
__________________
"Internet message boards aren't as funny today as they were ten years ago. I've stopped reading new posts." -The Simpsons 20th anniversary special.
The Wormhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 24 2014, 03:06 AM   #24
Gov Kodos
Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Writing Women

QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
What makes them annoying, bitchy and/or whiny?
QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
Bellana is always crying about some thing or another. Nothing anyone does is ever good enough for her and the whole crew seems to go to great lengths to avoid having to deal with her. She's rude and self-centred.
Good thing folks like Harry weren't always whining about one thing or another.

QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
Kira is similar to Bellana. She's always trying to start a fight. It's understandable to some degree given her experience with the Occupation, but it's still fucking annoying.
Worf, what a peacenik milksop he was.

QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
Luwaxanna is obsessed with finding a man for herself and her boring kid. It's kind of disappointing to see a female character whose whole existence on the show seems to be about attracting a man.
Sure, Tom and Kirk and Riker weren't checking out every woman with a pulse.

QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
Vash - basically Dennis the Menace.
No history of trouble making and immaturity from Tom Paris. A for fast talking con artists, good thing Tom, and Quark never pulled any cons on folks.

QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
Ro - see Kira
Women with opinions, good thing folks like McCoy were around to keep down the bitchiness.

QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
Janeway - Janeway spends all this time shutting down people who question her opinion only to realize at the end that she was in the wrong. There are too many of these kinds of episodes and the common thread in them is Janeway. You don't see this kind of shit happening on a consistent basis with any other captain.
Kirk never found out his hard ass methods could be wrong like 'Devil in the Dark' 'Obsession' 'Trouble with Tribbles'...

QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
Why does this male aspect make her not count as annoying, bitchy and/or whiny?
I'm not a fan of Dax. I don't think she's any of these things. I actually think she's kind of boring. But I don't attribute that to her gender as she doesn't have one specific gender.
So, since she's not just a woman like the others, she is exempt from female problems?
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched

Last edited by Gov Kodos; May 24 2014 at 03:26 AM.
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 24 2014, 03:39 AM   #25
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: Writing Women

If Vash is Dennis, is Picard Margaret? Or are we talking about the British Dennis?
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 24 2014, 04:24 AM   #26
Nightdiamond
Fleet Captain
 
Nightdiamond's Avatar
 
Location: California
Re: Writing Women

And the exaggerated qualities. For example Dax was the smart science officer, who knew how to kick ass because she hanged around Klingons, and at the same time she's sexy and good looking.

The perfect every-woman designed for Fanboys.

Pretty much the same thing with Seven- she's really intelligent, very precise, knows all the martial arts and, very attractive, and wears a skin tight jumpsuit that shows off every single curve.

I love seeing the eye candy, the catsuits and fighting, but it becomes a cliche after awhile.

They fair better than TOS's version-- All the women wear skimpy skirts, are allowed no where near the big chair, and are glorified secretaries who have to retire or marry by the time they reach lieutenant (glass ceiling).

There's one episode where Kirk is snatched off the bridge and vanishes, and Uhura, who's supposed to be the trained professional, screams. A real scared girlie girl scream.

I guess that would be the normal response, but you have to see this scene to know what I mean.

Sometimes TOS can be hilarious

Last edited by Nightdiamond; May 24 2014 at 04:36 AM.
Nightdiamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 24 2014, 11:01 AM   #27
Trekker4747
Fleet Admiral
 
Trekker4747's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City
Re: Writing Women

Luwaxanna is obsessed with finding a man for herself and her boring kid. It's kind of disappointing to see a female character whose whole existence on the show seems to be about attracting a man.
To be fair, she had entered Betazoid mid-life where we're told her sexual drive is that of a teenager. And for her faults, she has some strong character traits. The episode "Half a Life" is probably the best use of her where we get a good glimpse of her convictions and her in a relationship.
__________________
Out of hope.
Trekker4747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 24 2014, 11:01 AM   #28
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: Writing Women

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
They fair better than TOS's version-- All the women wear skimpy skirts, are allowed no where near the big chair, and are glorified secretaries who have to retire or marry by the time they reach lieutenant (glass ceiling).

There's one episode where Kirk is snatched off the bridge and vanishes, and Uhura, who's supposed to be the trained professional, screams. A real scared girlie girl scream.

I guess that would be the normal response, but you have to see this scene to know what I mean.

Sometimes TOS can be hilarious
I got into Trek watching TOS repeats on BBC2 when I was a bairn, so I have a soft spot for it in my memories--which is the reason I avoid watching it now so it doesn't destroy itself in my mind.

It does however, need to be taken with a large handful of salt, given the time it was made, when female characters were always behind men, there as basically eye-candy or damsels in distress, and when the miniskirt was a sign of women's liberation. All things that should've been corrected in NuTrek but unfortunately aren't.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 24 2014, 03:41 PM   #29
QuarkforNagus
Lieutenant
 
QuarkforNagus's Avatar
 
Re: Writing Women

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Good thing folks like Harry weren't always whining about one thing or another.
OMG. Harry was SOOOO annoying. He was always afraid he was going to screw things up. How does he think he got assigned to a startship if he's so incompetent?

Worf, what a peacenik milksop he was.
Umm... Worf didn't argue with his CO anywhere near as much as Kira or Ro. And the whole point of the character was that he didn't always want to fight, like was expected of him.


Sure, Tom and Kirk and Riker weren't checking out every woman with a pulse.
BORING characters... Teenaged boys in Starfleet uniforms.


Quark never pulled any cons on folks.
To compare the two is asinine. Quark cons for profit.


Kirk never found out his hard ass methods could be wrong like 'Devil in the Dark' 'Obsession' 'Trouble with Tribbles'...
Kirk was a terrible captain.

So, since she's not just a woman like the others, she is exempt from female problems?
No. There are a lot of boring characters. Like Crusher, or Deanna Troi. And many annoying ones -- like Barclay, or Kira. I'm not sure what you're trying to get me to admit, here.

Relative to male characters, a larger proportion of female characters are infuriating to watch. So far, you seem to be the only one that hasn't offered an opinion, opting only to go back and forth with me, by proving that there are also annoying male characters.

Well, duh...
QuarkforNagus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 24 2014, 03:47 PM   #30
Captain Kathryn
Commodore
 
Captain Kathryn's Avatar
 
Location: In Star Trek / Doctor Who fantasy land aka New Jersey
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Captain Kathryn
Re: Writing Women

QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
I don't get why ST writers had such a hard time writing decent female characters.

With the exception of Seven and Whoopi Goldberg, the female characters were either annoying, bitchy and/or whiny, or completely uninteresting.

This doesn't seem to limited to ST. What's so hard about writing a compelling female character?
People can rag all they want on Voyager, but I think it had the strongest female ensemble of any Trek show. They weren't the types of women to "fall in love in a day" and crap like that, as they had characters do ever so often on other shows like TOS, TNG and occasionally DS9.

I wouldn't say "annoying or bitchy" but I think they made many female characters very flat and one-sided a lot of times. However, I adore Kira, Dax, Torres, Janeway, Seven, T'Pol. Even the TNG ladies who were a bit one-sided are okay with me. But I always hated whenever the writers portrayed them as becoming completely IN LOVE in like a day. Get out of here. Not saying it doesn't happen in real life to people (it's happened to me) but it happening every few episodes is unrealistic...

On a side note, I think the reason Guinan didn't suck is BECAUSE of Whoopi Goldberg!
__________________
Assimilate more Janeway...among other stuff! Captain Kathryn's Tumblr
Captain Kathryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:33 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.