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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 21 2014, 02:41 AM   #16
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

The sexuality issue could've been about Spock. A lot of questions about Vulcan sexuality can be explored because of the growing relationship between Spock and Uhura.

Are Vulcans sexual creatures? That is, do Vulcans have sexual feelings towards someone? Pon farr itself may just be an incredible urge to mate for procreation, not a desire to express sexual feelings for the pleasure of it. Bear in mind Vulcans seem a bit embarrassed by pon farr and the feelings it unleashes.

To a Vulcan, can sex be solely for the pleasure of sex? Is it logical? Sex is one of the ultimate emotional experiences. For humans, it can be an essential part of a relationship. But would engaging in it purely for the fun of it and both the emotional bond and release it creates be contradictory to Vulcan stoicism? Do Vulcans even have a libido to be satisfied?

I would think that those questions have to be answered before the relationship between Spock and Uhura can advance beyond simply stealing kisses and caring for each other.
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Old May 21 2014, 03:14 AM   #17
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Set Harth wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure the gay character is Keenser.
Cop out. Gay character must be human so it can't be written off as but, aliens.

Though of course if you slash him with Scotty it works fine.
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Old May 21 2014, 08:01 AM   #18
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
No definites about it. For Chekov to be a different person, you have to prove he was telling the truth about his age in "Plato's Stepchildren", or that there were no time dilation or other temporal shenanigans involving him prior to his time on the Enterprise.
Lol! If we couldn't even trust canon to be canon there would be anarchy! Oh, wait...

However, it is a valid point even if it doesn't explain why Scotty's personality is very different. Maybe he's a changeling?
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Old May 21 2014, 12:03 PM   #19
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Dukhat wrote: View Post

Where are you getting a gay character out of this quote? Just the "implying the sexuality" thing? That doesn't necessarily mean that someone is gay.
good observation. There aren't just two sexual orientations.
implying the sexuality could mean bisexuality or pansexuality too or even asexuality.

Franklin wrote: View Post
The sexuality issue could've been about Spock.
though, the vibe I get is that JJ is talking about secondary characters that didn't get any character development so far. In fact, the interview asked if Spock/Uhura were supposed to be the only ones that got screentime and if the writers had ideas for the others too. And JJ said they did but they have too many characters to develop in a small time.
I think he was talking about Sulu, Chekov, Scotty and McCoy.
Anyone but Kirk and Spock who are the protagonists and thus get plenty of screentime already.

A lot of questions about Vulcan sexuality can be explored because of the growing relationship between Spock and Uhura.

Are Vulcans sexual creatures? That is, do Vulcans have sexual feelings towards someone? Pon farr itself may just be an incredible urge to mate for procreation, not a desire to express sexual feelings for the pleasure of it. Bear in mind Vulcans seem a bit embarrassed by pon farr and the feelings it unleashes.

To a Vulcan, can sex be solely for the pleasure of sex? Is it logical? Sex is one of the ultimate emotional experiences. For humans, it can be an essential part of a relationship. But would engaging in it purely for the fun of it and both the emotional bond and release it creates be contradictory to Vulcan stoicism? Do Vulcans even have a libido to be satisfied?
It's logical because it's biology
(and vulcans are adept about finding excuses for themselves... see the whole 'vulcans don't lie' whatever guys )
we do know that pon farr isn't the only time they mate or can mate, it just is the time they have to do it.
Pon farr is itself a reminder of the true nature of the vulcans because let's not forget that to their core they're actually far more emotional and passionate than the humans.
Why you think they are so scared to have emotions?
Why should the vulcans need to be so obsessed about control while humans can be emotional creatures without the need to seek control to that level?
Because vulcans have more powerful emotions than us, in fact their society and race was almost destroyed because of that, until a dude called Surak decided that the best solution for their race was the mastery of control of their emotions and embracing logic...but even then some groups disagreed and thought that the best way to not let their emotions destroy them was embracing them instead. ( E.g., the romulans and people like Spock's brother)
“The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. Resist it, and your soul grows sick with longing for the things it has forbidden to itself, with desire for what its monstrous laws have made monstrous and unlawful.” - Oscar Wilde

Might have a point


In a way, it could be actually interesting to see how the destruction of their home planet in the reboot affected their race as a whole and might have altered their philosophy a bit too.
The comics had put some hints about it so far. Like the vulcans that seek revenge after what happened to their planet or those who reverted back to pre-surak state because they couldn't endure the grief and the loss of their planet and loved ones. It's implied for example that the vulcans are starting to realize that they can't be stuck to some of their traditions anymore (like the way they deal with pon farr itself and the arranged bonds things). The loss of their planet was something too big and nothing they could be prepared to face. It's the ultimate test for their race and that might just show their biggest vulnerability and that control isn't enough.


The way I see it, vulcans love and hate with more passion than us. They're just good at hiding it in public and maintain a facade.
as for Spock, due to his human/vulcan heritage it's quite possible, in reality, that he has vulcan feelings but his control is predominantly human (and thus weaker) and that's what makes it even harder for him than the other vulcans.

however, it seems to me that he's almost more vulcan 'in character' with Uhura than with the others. He's like more peaceful with her and seems to find a balance between his control and the need to embrace his emotions. This might be due to the fact that they're already a couple and when they're together, in private, he's allowed to express his feelings with her and to her in a way he isn't with others so the rest of the time and when they are with the others he's able to behave


I would think that those questions have to be answered before the relationship between Spock and Uhura can advance beyond simply stealing kisses and caring for each other.
didn't the official comics show them naked in his bed at one point? ...

I don't think that the movies need to show the same thing in order to make me understand that there is a certain level of intimacy between the two that goes beyond a kiss.
Knowing Spock and the vulcans, things like the way he put his face in the space between her neck and shoulder in that hug or him placing his hand a bit too close to her butt on that transport pad, lol, speak volumes and suggest me that this man is familiar with this woman and her body and he's both used to her touch and to touch her.
Subtle and effective IMO
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Old May 21 2014, 12:16 PM   #20
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
No definites about it. For Chekov to be a different person, you have to prove he was telling the truth about his age in "Plato's Stepchildren", or that there were no time dilation or other temporal shenanigans involving him prior to his time on the Enterprise.
My theory is that he is the exact same person, his parents had him frozen as an embryo and the age difference is because they implanted him at a different time in the JJTimeline.
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Old May 21 2014, 10:54 PM   #21
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

^Nice idea, teacake. I stole it over in the Trek lit forum.
Malaika wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post

Where are you getting a gay character out of this quote? Just the "implying the sexuality" thing? That doesn't necessarily mean that someone is gay.
good observation. There aren't just two sexual orientations.
implying the sexuality could mean bisexuality or pansexuality too or even asexuality.
Good point.
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Old May 22 2014, 08:00 PM   #22
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
The intense backstory was probably Carol Marcus.
I would hardly call the reason behind her english accent to be an intense backstory.
Based on what Alice Eve mentioned about it, her characterization was written both as a generational conflict and a microcosm of the rift between Starfleet and Section Thirty One. Basically, Carol had a serious conflict with her father in a relationship that was otherwise very solid and uplifting until something happened that caused him to become all warped and evil. Her backstory would be as much about her disillusionment and lost of her father figure as the evolution of Alex's jingoistic fugue, and finally, Carol's ultimately futile quest to restore him to the man once was, "and should be again."

Too bad Khan crushed his head.
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Old May 27 2014, 03:24 AM   #23
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

teacake wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure the gay character is Keenser.
Cop out. Gay character must be human so it can't be written off as but, aliens.

Though of course if you slash him with Scotty it works fine.
I've always suspected Scotty and Keenser's relationship is more than platonic. They certainly act like a married couple.
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Old May 29 2014, 04:06 PM   #24
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Based on what Alice Eve mentioned about it, her characterization was written both as a generational conflict and a microcosm of the rift between Starfleet and Section Thirty One. Basically, Carol had a serious conflict with her father in a relationship that was otherwise very solid and uplifting until something happened that caused him to become all warped and evil. Her backstory would be as much about her disillusionment and lost of her father figure as the evolution of Alex's jingoistic fugue, and finally, Carol's ultimately futile quest to restore him to the man once was, "and should be again."
The female character fails to do something on her own? That's nothing new for JJ's Star Trek.

This feels like a reoccurring problem that the writers just can't seem to fix. They write these moments that are meant to expand the character's motivation and overall sense of purpose in the story, but when the film is being edited, all that stuff is marginalized to just being a point in the story. Yeah, they may get the point across, but that all it will end up being. A simple, barely touched on point that's moved to the side and forgotten about later on.

The focus on character development has certainly changed since TWOK. I remember watching the Director's Edition of TWOK for the first time and realizing that unlike what a lot of unrated cuts do nowadays, all the added material was all character focused. No added violence, nudity or language. Just more moments with the characters. Why does it feel like this is the exact opposite approach with these new films?

Also after reading Nick Meyer's book "The View from the Bridge", he mentions that he had to cut that scene with Preston because the studio thought Kirk calling him a 'tiger' was too gay. :tommie: Wonder is there are still studio execs who look to intently on things like that.
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Old May 29 2014, 04:23 PM   #25
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Jeyl wrote: View Post
The female character fails to do something on her own? That's nothing new for Star Trek.
FIFY.
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Old May 29 2014, 04:34 PM   #26
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Jeyl wrote: View Post
The female character fails to do something on her own? That's nothing new for JJ's Star Trek.
Yeah, because TOS was such a paragon of equality and nonexploitation when it came to the female sex.

Really, your tired swipes at JJTrek about things that TOS did all the time is quite annoying.

*Edit* Dennis beat me to the punch.
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Old May 29 2014, 04:36 PM   #27
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Dennis wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
The female character fails to do something on her own? That's nothing new for Star Trek.
FIFY.
I think Star Trek: Deep Space Nine is still ahead of the game when it comes to gay characters and other potential things to do differently in Star Trek. I remember how everyone made a huge fuss over Spock and Uhura being in a relationship as if to say that kind of stuff could never be done on the original series. Well, I was seeing that stuff taken the extra mile in DS9 with Worf and Dax. Not only are the two of them completely different species with no "human half", the actors themselves also didn't have the same skin color.

Even with a lot of things that new Star Trek is doing, there is still this inescapable feeling that everyone is looking at it with a backwards style of thinking.
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Old May 29 2014, 04:54 PM   #28
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Jeyl wrote: View Post

Even with a lot of things that new Star Trek is doing, there is still this inescapable feeling that everyone is looking at it with a backwards style of thinking.
If wanting to be entertained is a "backwards style of thinking" then I guess you're right.
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Old May 29 2014, 04:54 PM   #29
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Really, your tired swipes at JJTrek about things that TOS did all the time is quite annoying.
That's kind of the point of my argument. The reason I take swipes at JJ's films is because they've completely back tracked to the way TOS treated it's female characters. Star Trek as a franchise did get better with time, but since this new Trek is meant to reflect the original series, well, I'm not quite sure dated elements are worth honoring. Not only did they do follow that to a T, they've taken it a step further with STID. Do you remember an episode where Uhura was a constant whiner about her relationship with Spock in the original series? I don't, but that's the "new and improved" Uhura we have now. She slept around with her freaking Academy instructor and complains to him when she doesn't get selected for the best ship in the fleet.

If this is the high court's idea of improving the non-white male characters, what kind of a chance does a gay character have in this new universe? They've already made the Enterprise a "male" character in the new comics.
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Old May 29 2014, 05:00 PM   #30
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Re: A gay character and other potential ST3 tidbits

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Do you remember an episode where Uhura was a constant whiner about her relationship with Spock in the original series? I don't, but that's the "new and improved" Uhura we have now. She slept around with her freaking Academy instructor and complains to him when she doesn't get selected for the best ship in the fleet.
I can't remember an episode of TOS where Uhura had more than a couple of lines of relevant dialogue. As much as I love TOS, the Abrams version of Uhura is a more believable, more well-rounded character.
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