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Old May 19 2014, 03:33 PM   #16
Yanks
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Re: Regeneration question...

Zane1108 wrote: View Post
So I just wanted to make one thing clear the Borg in this episode were the ones Picard dealt with in First Contact right?
Correct.

Zane1108 wrote: View Post
So why didn't Picard scan the surface before he left and see that there were still Borg down there?
Why didn't the borg just go back to when humans just started evolving and whipe them out them? You can go round and round and round...

Zane1108 wrote: View Post
I remember him saying he didn't want to contaminate the timeline, but didn't he do just that?
The standard "don't contaminate the timeline" line in Star Trek...


Zane1108 wrote: View Post
The episode implied that Picard through a paradox set the wheels in motion for the Borg attack right?
No, that was Q. Picard was simply reacting to events at the Battle of Wolf 359.

Zane1108 wrote: View Post
Can anyone explain why Picard would leave Borg down on the surface before returning to his time?
You can make up any excuse you want. The one that I think might be plausable is that the explosion of the Borg Sphere happened just as they "showed up" in 2063. Picard had a little more on his plate than worrying about some debris. For all we know, These Borgsicles didn't land in the great white north for some time. As we saw in Enteprise, the debris wasn't covered with much ice and snow it was just located in a region that didn't get much attention.
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Old May 19 2014, 09:22 PM   #17
Masiral
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Re: Regeneration question...

Mytran wrote: View Post
It wouldn't be the first time that Picard felt he had the right to try and tamper with history (see also Yesterday's Enterprise)
But that was a Picard of an alternate timeline, not the Picard of First Contact.
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Old May 19 2014, 09:31 PM   #18
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Regeneration question...

Mytran wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ That was *restoring* history, not tampering with it.
That was just Picard's bit of spin to try and convince his senior staff to go along with the word of a bartender. In reality, he had no way of knowing whether the last 20 years of history were "correct" or not, since he had lived every day and they were very real to him!

Call it what you will, this War-Picard had made the unilateral decision to try and change history for everyone.
Given how badly the Federation was losing the war with the Klingons, I'd say he made the right call.
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Old May 20 2014, 01:38 AM   #19
Tiberius
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Re: Regeneration question...

Zane1108 wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Zane1108 wrote: View Post

I have to disagree with this there is no way Picard would leave drone Borg on the surface intentionally.
Really? Even if he knew that to remove them would mean that history would play out differently and could change the future?
How could Picard possibly know that is my question? He had no knowledge of the events that would take place once the Borg were discovered by the scientists. Why would he think this is the natural part of the timeline? The episode implies that Picard in a weird Star Trek way set the wheels in motion for the eventual Borg attack 200 years later and that rubbed me the wrong way.
He looked in the history books and saw it there. Or, he had the Borg's knowledge of it after being assimilated in The Best of Both Worlds.
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Old May 21 2014, 03:32 AM   #20
mythme
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Re: Regeneration question...

To quote O'Brien "I hate temporal mechanics"

"Regeneration" is one of those things that creates a paradox that cannot really be untangled. The real question is, were the attacks along the Neutral Zone a random scout and recon mission by the Collective, or was it a result of the signal sent by the drones in "Regeneration"?

If the first is true, then it was Q who screwed up the timeline by introducing Picard to the Borg earlier than what history had planned. Had "Q Who" not occurred, the Federation (and the Romulans) would have not learned who destroyed their outposts in "The Neutral Zone" and the whole Alpha Quadrant would have been taken unaware by the Borg. There would have been no prep time noted in "BOBS", and no Defiant class. The Borg (or at least their Queen) wouldn't have singled out Picard who was used to defeat them during their first really attack on Earth. Our side of the galaxy would have probably fell pretty easily.

If the second is true, then it was the Borg themselves who understood the complexities of the timeline (which the Queen and Seven of Nine both imply) and, realizing their second attack upon Earth was going to fail, "reset" the timeline into a loop by launching the sphere and giving them endless opportunities to successfully assmilate Earth. The Borg do not seem to regard a temporal directive. Being able to open temporal vortexes gives them a million changes to take the Alpha Quadrant.
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Old May 21 2014, 07:10 AM   #21
Mytran
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Re: Regeneration question...

I think we have to assume that the Borg only had one piece of temporal displacement equipment, aboard the Queen's sphere. Otherwise the Borg would be constantly making forays into the past to rectify past failures. In fact, they would already have conquered just about everything!
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Old May 21 2014, 02:48 PM   #22
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Re: Regeneration question...

The Queen doesn't have a particular ship. She said she was aboard the cube that was destroyed in BOBW and in Voyager when she needed to travel, she used a diamond-shaped vessel.

Their forays into time travel could have been a newly aquired acquisition at the time of First Contact. Borg only know what they assimilate. Perhaps they got ahold of some Krenim scientists but only slowly developed time-travel from a handful of individuals which had to filter throughout the collective.
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Last edited by mythme; May 21 2014 at 02:59 PM.
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Old May 26 2014, 06:59 AM   #23
Emperor Norton
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Re: Regeneration question...

The real answer is that ENT started off with an amazingly interesting idea, but didn't know what it was doing and ended up bringing in TNG races for no other reasons that a lazy demographics grab.

Hence, why were there Borg? Because they wanted an excuse to have Borg. There was no reason for it, since the 22nd century could have been interesting all on its own (also why there was no reason to tie the series to time travel).

You can create any in-universe explanation for it, and lord knows we have to, but that's the actual reason.
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Old May 26 2014, 07:37 AM   #24
Tiberius
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Re: Regeneration question...

Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
The real answer is that ENT started off with an amazingly interesting idea, but didn't know what it was doing and ended up bringing in TNG races for no other reasons that a lazy demographics grab.

Hence, why were there Borg? Because they wanted an excuse to have Borg. There was no reason for it, since the 22nd century could have been interesting all on its own (also why there was no reason to tie the series to time travel).

You can create any in-universe explanation for it, and lord knows we have to, but that's the actual reason.
Really? The Borg were in ONE episode. And it fits in very well with the rest of the series. And ENT didn't bring in a bunch of TNG races. The main players throughout the show were the Vulcans, the Andorians and the Klingons, all established in TOS. And they did a huge story arc in season 3 with a race that had never appeared before at all.
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Old May 26 2014, 07:40 AM   #25
Tiberius
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Re: Regeneration question...

mythme wrote: View Post
To quote O'Brien "I hate temporal mechanics"

"Regeneration" is one of those things that creates a paradox that cannot really be untangled. The real question is, were the attacks along the Neutral Zone a random scout and recon mission by the Collective, or was it a result of the signal sent by the drones in "Regeneration"?
In my novelization of "The Best of Both Worlds" it's the latter.

If the second is true, then it was the Borg themselves who understood the complexities of the timeline (which the Queen and Seven of Nine both imply) and, realizing their second attack upon Earth was going to fail, "reset" the timeline into a loop by launching the sphere and giving them endless opportunities to successfully assmilate Earth. The Borg do not seem to regard a temporal directive. Being able to open temporal vortexes gives them a million changes to take the Alpha Quadrant.
Actually, I figure that the message (and the reason for the Borg going back in time in FC) was more about sending the Borg of the past information about the future.
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Old May 26 2014, 09:34 PM   #26
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Re: Regeneration question...

Tiberius wrote: View Post
And ENT didn't bring in a bunch of TNG races. The main players throughout the show were the Vulcans, the Andorians and the Klingons ...
Also seen were the Romulans, Ferengi, Orions, Tellerites.

Thing is the writers showed they were capable of creating new interesting species, so why the "retreads?"

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Old May 27 2014, 12:56 PM   #27
Tiberius
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Re: Regeneration question...

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
And ENT didn't bring in a bunch of TNG races. The main players throughout the show were the Vulcans, the Andorians and the Klingons ...
Also seen were the Romulans, Ferengi, Orions, Tellerites.

Thing is the writers showed they were capable of creating new interesting species, so why the "retreads?"

And with the exception of the Ferengi (also just one episode), none of these were species from TNG. And two of them were only ever seen in TOS until that point as well! So I don't see how the "TNG retreads" argument is particularly valid.
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Old June 20 2014, 05:26 PM   #28
Richard Baker
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Re: Regeneration question...

In addition to trying to fix a half assimilated ship, he had also sent the entire remaining crew in escape pods down to isolated sections of Earth- retrieving all those people and pods would take priority.
The big question is whether the events in First Contact created an alternate timeline in the first place. The NX-01 is sometimes considered to be part of that timeline as it was unusually advanced in some aspects, taking events forward to the TOS Kelvin being so different than what we would expect from the prime universe timeline of the original series. The encounter with the Narada would have been the second contamination.

When the Borg went back in time their vessel's destruction was not part of the original timeline so anything that happened to it's debris would be also part of the new timeline.
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Old June 20 2014, 09:46 PM   #29
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Regeneration question...

I don't think it's possible to call ENT an AU in light of season 4 episodes like "In a Mirror, Darkly" (which ties ENT directly to TOS: "The Tholian Web") and "These are the Voyages" (which ties ENT directly to TNG: "The Pegasus")

There was a lot of time travel in ENT, and history definitely changed during the time war, but I think it changed to the timeline we know from TOS/TNG and the rest, not away from it.
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Old June 21 2014, 02:10 AM   #30
Yanks
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Re: Regeneration question...

Richard Baker wrote: View Post
In addition to trying to fix a half assimilated ship, he had also sent the entire remaining crew in escape pods down to isolated sections of Earth- retrieving all those people and pods would take priority.
The big question is whether the events in First Contact created an alternate timeline in the first place. The NX-01 is sometimes considered to be part of that timeline as it was unusually advanced in some aspects, taking events forward to the TOS Kelvin being so different than what we would expect from the prime universe timeline of the original series. The encounter with the Narada would have been the second contamination.

When the Borg went back in time their vessel's destruction was not part of the original timeline so anything that happened to it's debris would be also part of the new timeline.
There is only one timeline.
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