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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 16 2014, 08:55 PM   #16
M'Sharak
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

YARN wrote: View Post
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Ok, the sheer number of torpedoes and all the talk about them is one thing that made it really hard for me to swallow what happens in this film. The only reason they have seventy-two torpedoes is that the original episode stated that Khan had seventy-two crewmen, and if each torpedo carries a crewman, there you go. But for a film like this, it's just too many torpedoes.

- You don't need that many torpedoes to kill one dude on a planet. One would suffice, and maybe bring an extra one.

- The Enterprise suddenly became equipped with torpedo launchers on the side of the ship. These are later called "tubes". It's ridiculous that it would have so many launchers. Are they all on the same side of the ship?

- We find out later the cryo-tubes (more than one use of the word "tubes" because these writers can't write) are inside the torpedoes are in the torpedoes. The script explicitly states that the fuel components were removed so the cases can be retrofitted to store the crew-members. So what the hell would have happened if Sulu didn't hear from Harrison (we never saw whether he did or not) and he decided to "unload the entire payload"? They had no fuel and would have probably not launch at all.

- But my biggest problem is at the end. The Enterprise is critically damaged, and there are gaping holes in the hull and there's red alert with an eminent threat, and somehow Spock manages to find enough experts to take the cryo-tubes out of the torpedoes and re-arm the torpedoes (of course, the ship took heavy damage but none of the torpedoes ever got hit). And all this experts did this in less than five minutes. What's more, they did it while torpedoes were still in those tubes (which we see how small those tubes are).. How can you do delicate engineering work in that space.

Because Khan says the "torpedoes are still in their tubes".

If they only had five torpedoes or so, I probably would go easier on this. 72 is too unwieldy. It's isn't a number, it's fan-service.
The problem is that when you start to think about it (who is fooling whom and for what purpose) the plot doesn't make a lot of sense.
What you've written has nothing to do with either the stated topic of the thread or anything in the post you've quoted.

This thread is about "things Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't like/has decided he can't accept in Star Trek Into Darkness.

If you wish to talk about "who is fooling whom" or "the plot doesn't make a lot of sense," then you really should start a separate thread for discussion of those topics, rather than attempting to divert a thread which is already about something else.
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Old May 16 2014, 09:04 PM   #17
F. King Daniel
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Ok, the sheer number of torpedoes and all the talk about them is one thing that made it really hard for me to swallow what happens in this film. The only reason they have seventy-two torpedoes is that the original episode stated that Khan had seventy-two crewmen, and if each torpedo carries a crewman, there you go. But for a film like this, it's just too many torpedoes.

- You don't need that many torpedoes to kill one dude on a planet. One would suffice, and maybe bring an extra one.
Sure you do. Carpet bomb the entire area to make sure he's killed. Why risk missing?
- The Enterprise suddenly became equipped with torpedo launchers on the side of the ship. These are later called "tubes". It's ridiculous that it would have so many launchers. Are they all on the same side of the ship?
32 on each side, and a much bigger Enterprise than the old TV series and movies versions.

"Tubes" has been used interchangeably with "launchers" since TOS. Why does it matter here?
- We find out later the cryo-tubes (more than one use of the word "tubes" because these writers can't write) are inside the torpedoes are in the torpedoes. The script explicitly states that the fuel components were removed so the cases can be retrofitted to store the crew-members. So what the hell would have happened if Sulu didn't hear from Harrison (we never saw whether he did or not) and he decided to "unload the entire payload"? They had no fuel and would have probably not launch at all.
"Cryo tubes" is an age old sci-fi term. IIRC it was used in TNG's "The Neutral Zone". What would you prefer they call them? I'm curious to know what alternate terms you would use for a tubular cryogenic device, which would fulfill your good writer needs.

And unlike on Earth, if you launch something in space, it keeps going. I don't know what the maximum range on those torpedoes were, but i find it believable that they could launch, point towards Khan and keep going with whatever they had.
- But my biggest problem is at the end. The Enterprise is critically damaged, and there are gaping holes in the hull and there's red alert with an eminent threat, and somehow Spock manages to find enough experts to take the cryo-tubes out of the torpedoes and re-arm the torpedoes (of course, the ship took heavy damage but none of the torpedoes ever got hit). And all this experts did this in less than five minutes. What's more, they did it while torpedoes were still in those tubes (which we see how small those tubes are).. How can you do delicate engineering work in that space.
There is plenty of workspace just outside the tubes. And Carol used brute force to open the missile on the planetoid earlier.

Spock called for all engineering and medical personnel to the task - that's two of the three ship departments. According to the old Experience the Enterprise site they have 1100 crew, so thats maybe as many as 366 crewmembers put to the task.
Because Khan says the "torpedoes are still in their tubes".

If they only had five torpedoes or so, I probably would go easier on this. 72 is too unwieldy. It's isn't a number, it's fan-service.
It's nitpicky. "Aft nacelle" -level nitpicky.
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Old May 16 2014, 09:11 PM   #18
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Assuming the torpedoes were given a tube each, since they could have been parked one behind the other in a smaller number of tubes.

Each one capable of firing mutiple torpedoes, so that each front loaded torpedo could be fired in a salvo, next one slides up a place. Far faster firing/reloading rate, torpedoes that travel further and pack a bigger punch.

I could see that being useful on the biggest front line ship the Federation has, especially after it got its ass kicked on its maiden voyage.

Next.
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Old May 16 2014, 09:22 PM   #19
Cinema Geekly
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

The Stig wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Jedi_Master wrote: View Post

They are plot holes and/or discrepancies.

Common to every movie, book, TV series, etc.
And plot holes are binary?
Of course not. It is interesting, however, to discuss why '72 torpedoes' is more or less bothersome than the Reliant not noticing an entire missing planet.
Absolutely this!

Usually the discussion would just degenerate down to "well I liked that movie more so it didn't bother me".
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Old May 16 2014, 09:26 PM   #20
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

The Stig wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Jedi_Master wrote: View Post

They are plot holes and/or discrepancies.

Common to every movie, book, TV series, etc.
And plot holes are binary?
Of course not. It is interesting, however, to discuss why '72 torpedoes' is more or less bothersome than the Reliant not noticing an entire missing planet.
For the sake or argument can they be just a bothersome as each other and for now we just focus our attention on the 72 torpedoes one?
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Old May 16 2014, 09:27 PM   #21
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
The Stig wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And plot holes are binary?
Of course not. It is interesting, however, to discuss why '72 torpedoes' is more or less bothersome than the Reliant not noticing an entire missing planet.
Absolutely this!

Usually the discussion would just degenerate down to "well I liked that movie more so it didn't bother me".
Like you're indirectly doing right now?
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Old May 16 2014, 09:56 PM   #22
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

The plot depends on Marcus knowing Khan's people were in the torpedoes and still expecting Kirk to fire them.
Umm, what? Marcus never indicates he would have known. Khan's plan appears to be a complete success: he has smuggled out his crew from a facility controlled by Marcus, with the help of Marcus, without Marcus realizing what the hell happened.

So the torpedoes would not have fired, and nothing wrong with that. Marcus was in the belief that they would fire, would rain death on Klingons, and would ignite a war. He didn't care about whether Khan would live or die; the useful agent had helped with the plan to ignite the war, and if 72 of the 72 torps missed and hit Klingon targets instead, all the better.

(Also, the torpedoes probably would not have exploded, either, so McCoy was never in real danger. Khan would have had no motivation to leave an explosive charge in place in any of the torpedoes!)

How can you do delicate engineering work in that space.
But please remember when exactly Spock learned of the fact that the tubes contained people. He had all the time in the world to do the removing, before the battle, without telling the audience. And he wouldn't have told the audience, because Khan would then have overheard. That is, there was no plot slot for a scene where Spock would discuss this thing with Kirk, because Kirk was with Khan all the time the camera showed him to us. It's just a sneaky yet extremely logical thing for Spock to have done ASAP when McCoy literally blew the lid on the big secret.

The only reason they have seventy-two torpedoes is that the original episode stated that Khan had seventy-two crewmen
Which makes one wonder whether Khan came up with a completely bogus "rationale" for why Marcus would need to equip the starship of a gullible young officer with exactly 72 torpedo launchers.

Although in fact we don't see anything like 72 (or even 36) holes on the side of the ship. Rather, it seems there are a bit over a dozen holes at most, and each is supposed to allow several torpedoes to "swim" out of the shuttle hangar where they were being stored. What purpose those holes would serve is not known, but it's quite possible they were never intended specifically for the launching of torpedoes, but rather for the delivery of some generic if small auxiliary craft from the hangar.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old May 16 2014, 09:59 PM   #23
Flying Spaghetti Monster
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

To wit: the plot point about the missing planet only applied to the set up of the film.
Yes, aside from the fact that the general language of Trek was still kind of being formed at the time it came out (no spin-offs yet) but the important thing is that it was just something that it set the story in motion.

But the torpedo thing is worse. It's both the set-up, plot mechanics, and resolution all in one. For a movie about people pointing weapons at other people, this story is more confusing than a time-travel story.

But I really do believe that 72 torpedoes is a lot. The shot where Bones shows Kirk all the removed cryo-tubes showss us only 13 torpedoes. That's it. Yeah people can explain how big the ship is and all that... but it also took so much damage, crew-memebers were flying out at warp speeed, that I find it hard to believe that all of those people could be removed from them during a crisis. It happened in five minutes.

From a writing point of view also seemed like a pretty bland way for Spock to solve the proble. Maybe it works, maybe it's acceptible, but it's not something that wows me, that tells me "oohhh that was a fantastic solution."
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Old May 16 2014, 10:06 PM   #24
Set Harth
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Timo wrote:
Umm, what? Marcus never indicates he would have known.
Not only does Marcus demonstrate that he knows when he shows up and has his conversation with Kirk, but Khan tells Kirk & Spock about how his plan was discovered. Marcus did indeed realize what the hell happened; the film tells us this explicitly.

Timo wrote:
(Also, the torpedoes probably would not have exploded, either, so McCoy was never in real danger. Khan would have had no motivation to leave an explosive charge in place in any of the torpedoes!)
But Marcus would have, and the torpedoes were in Marcus' possession, not Khan's, when they were given to Kirk. The warheads on the weapons were live, as Carol said.
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Old May 16 2014, 10:22 PM   #25
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Shazam! wrote: View Post
we just focus our attention on the 72 torpedoes one?

You keep telling us again and again and again that we must focus our criticism on nuTrek and not make comparisons to old Trek.

Why?
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Old May 16 2014, 10:30 PM   #26
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
To wit: the plot point about the missing planet only applied to the set up of the film.
Yes, aside from the fact that the general language of Trek was still kind of being formed at the time it came out (no spin-offs yet) but the important thing is that it was just something that it set the story in motion.
That's crazy. The entire story is predicated on an easy-spotted error: there are fewer planets in the Ceti system than the last time we were here. Additionally, TWoK also depends heavily on the notion that Chekov would only remember Khan after seeing the belt buckle or that there were no records of Khan's location from the Enterprise logs. Without these easily-corrected blunders, Khan would have continued to rot on that planet and everyone would have continued on their merry way.

It's all contrivance, built upon more contrivance. And don't even get me started on Kirk and Spock's super-sekkrit 'By the book' code. Yeesh.

But the torpedo thing is worse. It's both the set-up, plot mechanics, and resolution all in one. For a movie about people pointing weapons at other people, this story is more confusing than a time-travel story.
I didn't find it confusing at all. There were 72 weapons because that's how many of Khan's supermen were hidden. I expect there were more unaltered torpedoes at the secret Section 31 base in London or elsewhere. Marcus would have given Kirk hundreds of torpedoes if that's how many men Khan had hidden. The Enterprise is friggin huge, I have no problem believing that it could store hundreds of munitions in that massive engineering hull.

But I really do believe that 72 torpedoes is a lot. The shot where Bones shows Kirk all the removed cryo-tubes showss us only 13 torpedoes. That's it. Yeah people can explain how big the ship is and all that... but it also took so much damage, crew-memebers were flying out at warp speeed, that I find it hard to believe that all of those people could be removed from them during a crisis. It happened in five minutes.
One of the things that bother me about the Abrams films is that they play fast-and-loose with event timings. Trips take minutes instead of hours or days, Scotty makes off-handed comments about being off-ship for 'one bloody day' when the events of STID couldn't have happened in such a short time-frame. There is clearly a kind of narrative short-hand that is occurring where the pacing of the film is being treated with more importance than establishing a strict continuity of events.

I think that, on the whole, that it's the right tradeoff to make but sometimes the seams show a little too clearly.

From a writing point of view also seemed like a pretty bland way for Spock to solve the proble. Maybe it works, maybe it's acceptible, but it's not something that wows me, that tells me "oohhh that was a fantastic solution."
I thought it was great because it serviced the Kirk-Spock relationship and demonstrated yet again that these two men, working together, can accomplish miracles. They're both still finding their way, their rhythms, and it was a great moment when it paid off later during the reactor scene.
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Old May 16 2014, 10:44 PM   #27
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Maybe 72 isn't that conspicuous of a number.
In Arena Kirk orders a search team of 30 medical officers.
I always wondered about that until I realized that it's divisible by 6, the number of transporter pads.
So 5 fully manned transporter beam-downs equals 30 people.
72 would be a dozen. Maybe 72 is a common number for shipments in the Star Trek universe.
-just a thought.
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Old May 16 2014, 10:50 PM   #28
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

thumbtack wrote: View Post
You keep telling us again and again and again that we must focus our criticism on nuTrek and not make comparisons to old Trek.

Why?
For the lulz
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Old May 16 2014, 10:57 PM   #29
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

I think how they got 72 people out of each torpedo in 5 minutes in a battle situation (transporters were not working) is a MUCH larger hole than how Reliant forgot a planet. Maybe remnants of Ceti Alpha big enough to be mistaken for a planet were still orbiting the sun.
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Old May 16 2014, 11:14 PM   #30
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Re: "...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

The ship doesn't appear to be all that big when you look at the exterior shots (during Sulu's transmission) and we see the doors opening for the tubes...
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