RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,555
Posts: 5,513,840
Members: 25,146
Currently online: 600
Newest member: TM2-Megatron

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Dark Mirror.
Outstanding 23 48.94%
Above Average 17 36.17%
Average 5 10.64%
Below Average 0 0%
Poor 2 4.26%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 9 2014, 02:22 PM   #106
Tarheel
Lieutenant Commander
 
Tarheel's Avatar
 
View Tarheel's Twitter Profile
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

This novel reminds me of a time when Mirror Universe stories were few and far between. Mirror Mirror was one of my favorite TOS episodes when I was young. It was actually the only episode I ever purchased on VHS. The only sequel of note was the story arc early in the DC run of comics, which I enjoyed quite a bit at the time.

I always wanted an on-screen TNG sequel, but it never happened. I remember when Diane Duane's book was released, but for some reason I skipped it. That might have been because it hit the shelves during my senior year at college, when I didn't have much spare time or money.

By the time I returned to Trek-Lit, DS9 had already returned to the MU. However in my opinion, their canon take on current events in the MU missed the point. The MU was about opposites, not shades of grey. Today we have more MU stories than I can count, but I think this book serves as a proper sequel to the original TOS episode.
Tarheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2014, 03:03 PM   #107
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Tarheel wrote: View Post
However in my opinion, their canon take on current events in the MU missed the point. The MU was about opposites, not shades of grey.
I think some people take the "Mirror" part too literally, as if it were meant to be the purely fantasy conceit of a world where everything is just magically the exact opposite of what we know, like "The Counter-Clock Incident" along moral lines. In fact, Jerome Bixby's original premise wasn't about an "evil double" world at all, just a timeline where things had happened a bit differently: The Federation had never invented phasers and so a rival power had been able to nearly conquer them, plus Kirk was married, and stuff like that.

And even in the aired episode, it's not really about everything being opposite; Spock may be more ruthless there, but he's still driven by logic and reason, and ultimately turns out to have a moral core not unlike that of his counterpart. Also, the Halkans are exactly the same in both universes. So clearly it's not a literal reversal of the entire universe, it's just an alternate history where humanity (and evidently Vulcans) went down a more violent path. Indeed, it may have been inspired by Ellison's original story treatment for "City on the Edge of Forever," in which saving Edith resulted in a "present day" where the Enterprise had been replaced by a pirate ship with a crew of savage renegades.

Indeed, wasn't it kind of the thematic point of the episode that humans still had that same viciousness within them, that it was easy for Kirk and the others to cast off their civilized behavior and call on their inner savages? If anything, it was saying that the Mirror counterparts weren't opposites at all, just less civilized and less advanced in their ethics. That this was a path humanity could easily have taken if it hadn't found a better way.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 10:24 PM   #108
Enterprise1701
Fleet Captain
 
Enterprise1701's Avatar
 
Location: Sol III, Sector 001, 2014 C.E.
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I wish that for the 30th anniversary Pocket Books could do a novel trilogy of the Federation starship Enterprise-E meeting the Commonwealth starship Enterprise.
Enterprise1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 11:59 PM   #109
tomswift2002
Fleet Captain
 
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
I wish that for the 30th anniversary
30th anniversary of what? Trek's 30th was celebrated in 1996, and Pocket's 30th printing anniversary was in 2009.
tomswift2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 13 2014, 12:23 AM   #110
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

TNG's is in 3 years, I think that might be what he is referring too.
__________________
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites
JD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 13 2014, 05:34 PM   #111
Paris
Commodore
 
Paris's Avatar
 
Location: In the future's past
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Or perhaps Enterprise1701 meant the 50th anniversary of Trek in 2016..
__________________
"I don't use plot to serve continuity porn, I use continuity porn to serve plot." - Christopher L. Bennett July 2, 2013
Paris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 13 2014, 11:13 PM   #112
Enterprise1701
Fleet Captain
 
Enterprise1701's Avatar
 
Location: Sol III, Sector 001, 2014 C.E.
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JD wrote: View Post
TNG's is in 3 years, I think that might be what he is referring too.
Correct. I am referring to TNG's 30th anniversary in 2017.
Enterprise1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2014, 02:08 AM   #113
Stevil2001
Rear Admiral
 
Stevil2001's Avatar
 
Location: 2010
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Tarheel wrote: View Post
However in my opinion, their canon take on current events in the MU missed the point. The MU was about opposites, not shades of grey.
And even in the aired episode, it's not really about everything being opposite [...] Also, the Halkans are exactly the same in both universes. So clearly it's not a literal reversal of the entire universe, it's just an alternate history where humanity (and evidently Vulcans) went down a more violent path.
Isn't the gimmick there that the Halkans are ethically "neutral," so there's nothing to reverse?
__________________
"I don't like adventure. I'm a stay-at-home-and-read kind of guy."
Science's Less Accurate Grandmother

Last edited by Stevil2001; May 14 2014 at 03:46 AM.
Stevil2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2014, 04:09 AM   #114
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Stevil2001 wrote: View Post
Isn't the gimmick there that the Halkans are ethically "neutral," so there's nothing too reverse?
Nothing could be further from the truth. The Halkans were emphatically not neutral, but devoutly pacifist. "Our dilithium crystals represent awesome power. Wrongful use of that power, even to the extent of the taking of one life, would violate our history of total peace. To prevent that, we would die, Captain, as a race if necessary." That is as far from "ethically neutral" as you can possibly get. It's an extreme moral stance -- and it was completely unaltered.

"Mirror Universe" is just a convenient label based on the title of the episode. It is not a literal description or explanation of the nature of that universe. Remember that within the series, it's never been called the "Mirror Universe," just a parallel or alternate universe. In "Mirror, Mirror," there is never a single use of a word like "opposite" or "reflection" -- even "mirror" is not used outside the title. And the title is just a literary reference.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2014, 12:35 PM   #115
Stevil2001
Rear Admiral
 
Stevil2001's Avatar
 
Location: 2010
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I am pretty sure that's the tack taken in Blish's novelization. (I don't have a copy, though.)

Anyway, I think arguing over plausibility misses the point. I don't think Tarheel was saying there was a "fantasy conceit of a world where everything is just magically the exact opposite of what we know"-- rather, I think they were saying the audience interest factor of the mirror universe lies in seeing evil opposites of our main characters, and the Deep Space Nine version of the mirror universe neglects that, as do its prose treatments.
__________________
"I don't like adventure. I'm a stay-at-home-and-read kind of guy."
Science's Less Accurate Grandmother
Stevil2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2014, 02:58 PM   #116
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Stevil2001 wrote: View Post
I am pretty sure that's the tack taken in Blish's novelization. (I don't have a copy, though.)
Skimming through it, it's pretty close to the aired episode, aside from the omission of the big fight and the Spock/McCoy stuff in the last act, and with a few added lines and tweaking of details (for instance, the captain that Mirror Kirk assassinated was Karl Franz, not Christopher Pike).


Anyway, I think arguing over plausibility misses the point. I don't think Tarheel was saying there was a "fantasy conceit of a world where everything is just magically the exact opposite of what we know"-- rather, I think they were saying the audience interest factor of the mirror universe lies in seeing evil opposites of our main characters, and the Deep Space Nine version of the mirror universe neglects that, as do its prose treatments.
It's not about plausibility, it's about understanding what the episode actually depicted -- and what it didn't depict. It was not exact opposition, but a near-identical reality with only certain key differences. The only reason people see it as a universe of opposites is because they read too much into the title.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2014, 06:49 PM   #117
Stevil2001
Rear Admiral
 
Stevil2001's Avatar
 
Location: 2010
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I don't think it's "reading too much into the title" to claim that the appeal of "Mirror, Mirror" is that it depicts a universe where every one of our main characters (except Spock, revealed late in the story) is evil.
__________________
"I don't like adventure. I'm a stay-at-home-and-read kind of guy."
Science's Less Accurate Grandmother
Stevil2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2014, 06:57 PM   #118
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Evil, yes. Opposite, no. That's the point. The Starfleet characters are evil because their history was different, but that doesn't mean the Klingons are pacifists or the Tellarites are great conciliators or the Eymorgs are geniuses. What Tarheel said was "The MU was about opposites." I think I've shown that was very much not the case. It wasn't an inverted universe, it was a darker one, a timeline where humanity never found the enlightenment it did in the Prime universe. So the DS9 portrayal of a darker alternate history is not "missing the point" as Tarheel said -- it's a continuation of exactly what the original episode was about all along.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 15 2014, 04:30 AM   #119
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I know I'm probably in the minority, but I think what we got in DS9 was a lot more interesting than just more evil versions of the characters. Granted some of the characters were still evil, like Kira, Garak, Worf, ect., but it wasn't just evil Empire/good Federation like it was in Mirror, Mirror.
__________________
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites
JD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2014, 12:12 AM   #120
E-DUB
Captain
 
Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I hold with the view that just as there are multiple versions of the "prime" universe, there are multiple versions of the "Mirror" universe, many of which experienced some version of the events in "Mirror Mirror", some of which might not have.

I once had the idea for a TV series that would have been kind of "Star Trek" crossed with "Sliders" in which a future Enterprise (the G), would travel from universe to universe encountering in one a benevolent Borg collective, (Compliance is voluntary) and in another its own counterpart, also doing the trans-dimensional travel thing, from a universe where the Terran Empire never fell.
E-DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
mirror universe, review thread, reviewpoll_v1, tng book

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:08 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.