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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 7 2014, 09:33 PM   #31
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

albion432 wrote: View Post
Is there any insight to be gained by looking at what Kahless's voice mimicking achieved? It only seemed to be successful in rooting out another Excalbian, as someone pointed out, neither Spock nor Kirk were tricked by the ruse.

Something else I always wonder, did the Excalbian's who were "killed" really die, or was it part of the act, and once they returned to their normal state were still alive. Any thoughts on that?
Along similar lines, it's worth noting that when amongst themselves, the Excalbian/historical figures seemed to act and speak like they were the genuine articles. No "Boy I can't wait to shed this Colonel Green guise!" In By Any Other Name, the Kelvans among themselves made no secret of what they really were. Do the Excalbians have the ability to suppress their own identities when 'disguised'?
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Old May 8 2014, 10:21 AM   #32
Timo
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

We could be seeing a collective sapience for all we know, or at least a single individual with many bodies. Or the rock monster could be another puppet manifestation of the essentially formless Excalbian species. Or a robot of sorts, readily programmable for a variety of purposes: spokesperson for interacting with aliens, fake Earthling for amusement, who knows what else.

The default assumption, that the talking and walking rock is an Excalbian, might not do justice to the evident capabilities of the species. Reading minds, changing appearances, and manipulating orbiting starships at will... That's a combination of skills only found in God Himself, or at least the ST6:TFF incarnation of Him! (Although the Melkotians did relatively well there, too.)

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Old May 9 2014, 06:50 PM   #33
albion432
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Along similar lines, it's worth noting that when amongst themselves, the Excalbian/historical figures seemed to act and speak like they were the genuine articles. No "Boy I can't wait to shed this Colonel Green guise!" In By Any Other Name, the Kelvans among themselves made no secret of what they really were. Do the Excalbians have the ability to suppress their own identities when 'disguised'?
Good point. I like how you've drawn from the Kelvans as an example of what may be transpiring here. It is very possible The Savage Curtain was influenced by that Other episode, as it was produced earlier in the series. It's also interesting to me the alien race in By Any Other Name was basically named after a measurement of temperate, and a distinctive feature of the Excalbians is their extreme heat.

Timo wrote: View Post
We could be seeing a collective sapience for all we know, or at least a single individual with many bodies. Or the rock monster could be another puppet manifestation of the essentially formless Excalbian species. Or a robot of sorts, readily programmable for a variety of purposes: spokesperson for interacting with aliens, fake Earthling for amusement, who knows what else.
I like the idea here too, since the planet in its natural state is a liquid sea of molten rock. However, there is one line of dialog which posses a problem:

ROCK: Our world is called Excalbia. Countless who live on that planet are watching.

That would indicate separate individuals and not one massive being. One thing that always felt odd about that line, weren't they on Excalbia? It makes it sound like their on some other planet. Perhaps this is a holdover from an earlier version of the script, I guess we'll have to wait for These Are The Voyages Vol 3 to see if there are any clues there!

It could be the planet they are on is not Excalbia, but another world the Excalbian's use for these tests. Maybe its liquid state is ideal for the Excalbian's "godlike" manipulation of matter.

One last thought, does the premise of this episode remind anyone of Solaris at all?

Last edited by albion432; May 10 2014 at 02:59 AM.
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Old May 10 2014, 12:57 AM   #34
BoredShipCapt'n
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Of course, if you treat only TOS as canon the whole problem goes away...

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Old May 10 2014, 08:59 PM   #35
Timo
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

ROCK: Our world is called Excalbia. Countless who live on that planet are watching.

That would indicate separate individuals and not one massive being.
Right. Possibly a DS9 Founder/Changeling -style setup...?

One thing that always felt odd about that line, weren't they on Excalbia?
That's a good catch, and it would indeed make story sense for this place not to be the homeworld of the species but rather a forum for their experimentation. They can turn molten lava into "Earthlike" (or at least Hollywood-studio-floor-like) terrain, and rock creatures into Lincolns; perhaps they also turn molten lave into these crude rock creatures at will, to facilitate their games, and the actual Excalbian species is something different altogether, naturally capable of feats such as matter manipulation and interstellar vision... (Or then it's all done by machines, and their technology simply is difficult to spot by human eye.)

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Old May 10 2014, 10:03 PM   #36
albion432
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Timo wrote: View Post
Right. Possibly a DS9 Founder/Changeling -style setup...?
Most definitely, there can be no doubt they are shape shifters at any rate.

After reading your last post I went over the transcript of the episode more closely. I must say everything in the script except that one "that" seems to indicate they were on Excalbia. At this point, after a more detailed look at the dialog, I'm inclined to think it was a misspoken word which no one caught. The Rock was probably supposed to have said "on this planet" instead of "on that planet." This does not discredit your conjecture about the true nature of the Excalbians though. With the kind of games they play, they may have good reason to keep their true nature concealed.
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Old May 11 2014, 02:16 PM   #37
Armored Saint
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

BoredShipCapt'n wrote: View Post
Of course, if you treat only TOS as canon the whole problem goes away...

Now with the expanded universe, I suppose someone already wrote something to explain that Kahless was able to mimick voice because he was a Section 31 operative.
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Old May 17 2014, 05:03 AM   #38
Emperor Norton
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Armored Saint wrote: View Post
BoredShipCapt'n wrote: View Post
Of course, if you treat only TOS as canon the whole problem goes away...

Now with the expanded universe, I suppose someone already wrote something to explain that Kahless was able to mimick voice because he was a Section 31 operative.
When in doubt, Section 31.
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Old January 3 2015, 09:40 AM   #39
SermanyuQngan
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

To me it becomes quite simple if we use non-canon sources, that is. At least some sources any way, namely Michael Friedman’s “Kahless.” In that novel Kahless, the Original, and Kahless the Clone both matched in an original ability of Kahless, that was "lip reading." So taking this into account, it could have been propagandized Federation misinformation about the sinister skills of the ancient Klingon warlord or simply inaccurate and garbled up data, considering the non-existent cultural/diplomatic ties between the two governments at Star date: 5906.4.

In other words the fact that Kahless was able to read lips had metamorphosed, through slander and gossip, into an incorrect belief that Kahless engaged in ventriloquism. What the ancient Greeks called “Gastromancy.” Which I want to say I read somewhere was a skill that was used by the Greeks on the battlefield (unfortunately I can’t quite remember where I heard that at the moment). Anyhow, I believe this is one way we can reconcile these two differences in the Kahless of “The Savage Curtin” (TOS) and the Kahless of TNG.

What do you think…?
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Old January 3 2015, 05:27 PM   #40
Timo
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

...Of course, we can also say that Kahless in all of his incarnations was a skilled ventriloquist. Perhaps all Klingons are that by their very nature? Kahless never had a need or chance to demonstrate the skill in any of his other appearances. But theoretically, somebody like Worf might have made use of the skill if it were a species trait - say, when imprisoned by the Breen.

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Old January 3 2015, 07:37 PM   #41
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

"Gastromancy"? *Snicker* Sound like sorcery invoked by flatulence.

Sincerely,

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Old January 3 2015, 10:36 PM   #42
SermanyuQngan
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Timo wrote: View Post
...Of course, we can also say that Kahless in all of his incarnations was a skilled ventriloquist. Perhaps all Klingons are that by their very nature?
Kahless never had a need or chance to demonstrate the skill in any of his other appearances.
But theoretically, somebody like Worf might have made use of the skill if it were a species trait - say, when imprisoned by the Breen.

Timo Saloniemi
Yes, your right, I would imagine THAT certainly could be a natural trait of a species in which “The Hunt” was so central to the culture.
Being able to throw one’s own voice or mimic the sound of a game animal or even a prey animal could understandably have been a
survival trait which was proliferated in Klingon evolution.
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Old January 4 2015, 08:08 AM   #43
Joel_Kirk
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

albion432 wrote: View Post
Nebusj wrote: View Post
For an utterly trivial example, consider: we do not know exactly what he said in his address at Gettysburg. The drafts of his speech are not perfectly consistent, and wouldn't bind him rigorously to the exact words he used, and newspaper accounts vary, in some cases enormously. What the crowd reaction to the speech was is impossible to determine given the abundance of inconsistent documentation available.
Interesting, I was actually not away of that. It's sad to say the same sort of thing is still pretty prevalent even today. Most of the details the general public remembers and believes about major incidents are usually nothing more than speculation made by the talking heads on the 24 hr cable networks, which is often completely wrong. By the time the real facts are discovered and revealed, the public's attention has moved on to the next headline and those real facts tend to be forgotten.

Nebusj wrote: View Post
If we can't know with reasonable certainty the proceedings of three minutes, witnessed by thousands of people and reported on widely in the press at the time, and remembered by its witnesses for decades after, there's room for reasonable people to question the great themes of his life.
While it's true we cannot know with certainty what another man, contemporary or historical, truly feels about anything, there is little room to doubt Lincoln's sincerity or earnestness when it comes to "the great themes of his life" (and of course I'm not implying you have done so in any way with your post). However, he was very consistent about where he stood on the convictions he's famous for holding, and it's pretty clear what those close to him felt about the quality of his character. If you've not read it, Team of Rivals is one of the best books about Lincoln and is highly recommended.
A fellow African-American/black American/POC/American/dark-brown individual currently studying at a HBCU (Historical Black College and University) recently posted this quote on his Facebook page, something Lincoln said during a debate around 1858:

I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. My understanding is that I can just let her alone.

So, based on Kirk's idealized version of the man - Lincoln - he was thought of as a 'great' man, even though some, like myself, may not think of him so highly. I'm sure if the Excalbians had initially scanned and tested someone like Worf or Martok, we would have got a heroic Kahless on the 'good' side...and probably not depicted as a villain of history.
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Last edited by Joel_Kirk; January 4 2015 at 08:19 AM.
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Old January 4 2015, 02:52 PM   #44
Timo
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

...Perhaps that's what they are doing - taking the most heroic and most villainous characters from the minds of visitors, and then turning the roles around for the next visitor? The previous Earth vessel to have visited the place might have considered Lincoln the vilest wrongdoer in Earth history (in which case Green might also well be his or her hero), while the previous Klingon might have venerated Kahless. Perhaps a Romulan gave them the idea that Surak was the epitome of evil?

They claim they took Lincoln from Kirk's mind, but the other characters were created later - perhaps Lincoln was "stock"?

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Old January 7 2015, 01:35 AM   #45
Noname Given
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Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
So I was rewatching The Savage Curtain, and it reminded me of some canonical issues that need to get excused for that episode. Namely Kahless, who is shown to look exactly like a 23rd century, TOS Klingon and is said to be evil and to be the originator of the Klingons' evil ways. Obviously when this episode was made in the 60s, that was purely the intent. After the Klingons had been revised, the excuse is that it is how Kirk and Spock envision Kahless.

One of the things that is harder to explain is the false Kahless having the ability to perfectly mimic voices. This was nowhere mentioned in any of the later episodes, and so far as I know it does not seem to be explained or brought up anywhere else. One explanation would be the image of Kahless was given that ability by the Excalbians, but that doesn't make sense. This Kahless, if he comes from Kirk's and Spock's head, has to come from some idea that Kahless was capable of that. And the idea may come from Federation propaganda which was totally invented or at least an exaggeration. Or it may have been something real.

So any thoughts on the explanation?
There's no explanation needed as remember all the historical characters were taken from Kirk's and Spock's own minds; thus for Khaless, it was exactly what and how the Federation viewed him from whatever sources they had, as well as how Federation military and historical authors 'spun' things as they wrote about him.

Also, just because something was never mentioned in later episodes, it doesn't invalidate the fact something was mentioned in this episode. Just because we never saw the reincarnated/cloned Khaless mimic voices, it doesn't mean he didn't have the ability - just that there was no situation in the story being told that needed it.
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