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Old April 3 2014, 04:32 PM   #106
Forbin
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
I mean, come on, as unpopular as some Presidents have been lately, nobody with any shred of human decency should ever want them to be assassinated. That's barbaric and inhuman.
How so? They are directly responsible for thousands of deaths - surely their own life has no real moral basis for being more sacrosanct than that of their victims.
That does not follow.

All life is sacred. All life must be protected. All human beings must be given due process at all times. The simple fact is, nobody deserves to be killed - not ever.
How can you say that when Justin Beiber is still around?
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Old April 22 2014, 05:28 PM   #107
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

MacLeod wrote: View Post
The question is would they need a dedicated starship? Or would they just use which ever starfleet vessel happened to be available?

Surely it would be easier just to use which ever vessel was available.
I agree. However, it seems that the Enterprise (now the Sovereign-class Enterprise-E) is often considered the flagship of the Federation, both symbolically and often actually.

Earlier, though, I think Starfleet Command had envisioned the Excelsior-class ship would be the diplomatic ship of choice, so one of this class would probably have been the UFP President's flagship.

But, with the retirement of most Excelsior-class ships, that question is open for discussion.

What about a Prometheus-class ship?
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Old April 23 2014, 03:35 AM   #108
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

varek wrote: View Post

I agree. However, it seems that the Enterprise (now the Sovereign-class Enterprise-E) is often considered the flagship of the Federation, both symbolically and often actually.
I don't believe the E-E was ever actually (or even "considered") the Flagship of the Federation.


Last edited by T'Girl; April 23 2014 at 03:25 PM.
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Old April 23 2014, 06:37 PM   #109
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Edit: Nevermind. My suggestion was already mentioned back in post #7, and its creator is involved in the conversation. :blush:
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Old May 5 2014, 10:39 PM   #110
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
There's also the idea - and I know this is going to seem like an archaic and barbaric notion to some of you, but even so - that there are some circumstances under which you WANT the president to be vulnerable to a degree.
JFK even wanted accessibility. Having the bubble top down seems mad today, but it was a calculated risk, and I might have done the same thing. You can't stay in that car all day, anyway.

A Secret Service success story--what with Squeaky Fromme--to me was far worse. They jerked Gerald Ford back like a little three-year old child. You do not want your Commander-In-Chief to look like that. Putin would have slapped the gun out of her hand.
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Old May 6 2014, 12:57 PM   #111
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Edit: Nevermind. My suggestion was already mentioned back in post #7, and its creator is involved in the conversation. :blush:

I appreciate the vote.
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Old May 10 2014, 06:39 PM   #112
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
there are some circumstances under which you WANT the president to be vulnerable to a degree.
One of the problems with a leader possessing heavy security might be the psychological effect of that level of protect on the leader themselves.

The security can place the leader in a bubble of isolation and fear. Everywhere he goes outside of the armored buildings where he lives and works, he is surrounded by armed personnel, move from place to place in armored transports.

The result could be the leader growing scared of the people he serves.

It might also engender in the leader a dangerous false perception that they are personally special, more important, and even better than those those whom they work for and are employed by.

The office they hold is special, personally they are not.

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Old May 10 2014, 06:44 PM   #113
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

^ There is the risk of that, yes. But even in our own real world, it doesn't change the fact that there are some really sick people out there who want to kill anyone in positions of leadership or power. These must be accounted for and dealt with.

Sometimes, security may be overly cautious, and it may indeed have some effect on those it's protecting. But that doesn't change the fact that it is still needed.

Or, to put it another way: The danger of having too much security is much less than the danger of not having enough of it.
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Old May 10 2014, 08:12 PM   #114
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Oh, I very much doubt that. Security, after all, is violence, and increasing it doesn't really make the world a safer place.

The great thing about democracies is that the President or the Prime Minister isn't important, not really. A democracy can afford to lose him or her; indeed, the very idea behind that form of government is that "the people" get to fire him or her if unsatisfied with the work. If it is made more difficult to get rid of the Boss, then the urge to do so will only escalate, and so will the means.

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Old May 10 2014, 08:23 PM   #115
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Timo wrote: View Post
Oh, I very much doubt that. Security, after all, is violence, and increasing it doesn't really make the world a safer place.
Security isn't violence; it's the lack of it. Chaos is violence.

The great thing about democracies is that the President or the Prime Minister isn't important, not really. A democracy can afford to lose him or her; indeed, the very idea behind that form of government is that "the people" get to fire him or her if unsatisfied with the work. If it is made more difficult to get rid of the Boss, then the urge to do so will only escalate, and so will the means.
You get rid of a president or prime minister by having these things called ELECTIONS.
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Old May 10 2014, 08:49 PM   #116
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Security isn't violence; it's the lack of it. Chaos is violence.
Bullshit. You get security by applying violence or threatening with it; there isn't an alternate approach. Except perhaps bribery, but that never works for long.

You get rid of a president or prime minister by having these things called ELECTIONS.
Which just goes to show that he or she isn't important enough to warrant a private army for clinging to power. Clinging to life is fine and well, but it's important for the difference to be very visible...

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Old May 10 2014, 09:06 PM   #117
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Timo wrote: View Post
Security isn't violence; it's the lack of it. Chaos is violence.
Bullshit. You get security by applying violence or threatening with it
Perhaps. But in the end, security is a response to violence. If humans weren't such a brutal and violent species, there'd be no need for security forces of any kind.

Order won't spontaneously arise. It must be maintained. The opposite of order is chaos.

You get rid of a president or prime minister by having these things called ELECTIONS.
Which just goes to show that he or she isn't important enough to warrant a private army for clinging to power.
The Secret Service is not a "private army." A few plainclothes security officers do not an army make.
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Old May 10 2014, 09:18 PM   #118
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Order won't spontaneously arise. It must be maintained. The opposite of order is chaos.
And too much order is tyranny. Both ends mean excesses in violence, so the middle is to be sought.

A few plainclothes security officers do not an army make.
...But a Galaxy class starship for the UFP President is plenty enough to meet the criterion.

I wonder whether the UFP President really has Men in Black around him or her? It would be a rather nifty alternative to simply have him or her wear a forcefield belt, somewhat more potent than the TAS ones that couldn't stop phasers; random rioters couldn't touch the Prez, but the protection wouldn't be excessive or call for escalation. Essentially, it would be an invisible armored limo, a soft tool for good PR and adequate protection. (MIB to catch the fool who nevertheless takes a shot at the Prez would be optional. Regular law enforcement ought to be up to the task in the Trek environment...)

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Old May 10 2014, 09:20 PM   #119
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Timo wrote: View Post
The great thing about democracies is that the President or the Prime Minister isn't important, not really.
As I understand it the leader of Iceland (president, PM, whatever) has no security and lives in a medium sized house in a nice neighborhood. The General Secretary of the UN only occasionally has a moderate size security detail. The Federation President is probably more like the General Secretary of the UN and less the President of a large country.

If the President isn't the "embodiment of the Federation" and is instead simply the current and very temporary leader of the governing body, then killing or wounding him wouldn't be seen as much of a profound act or political statement. He wouldn't really be in all that much danger, because he is little more than a faceless bureaucrat.

Many of the peoples of the Member Worlds might not even know who he is. How many people in Europe could name the current head of the EU without looking it up? Or the UN?

Why kill him?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
You get rid of a president or prime minister by having these things called ELECTIONS.
Occasional running them out of town, covered in tar and feathers, could only be a good thing for a free society.

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Old May 10 2014, 09:25 PM   #120
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Timo wrote: View Post

I wonder whether the UFP President really has Men in Black around him or her?
In the novels, it's explained that the President used to be protected by Starfleet Security, but now a civilian Federation organization (the Protection Detail) is used instead.
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