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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old May 9 2014, 04:39 PM   #31
PhoenixClass
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
Fair enough, but 24th century society is very different from ours, so the comparison is limited by what is shown on the show, whether explicitly or implicitly.
While the technology is of course different, the society, the social forms, don't seem really too awful different.
I agree with you generally (at least when it comes to human families). I was just disagreeing with Smellincoffee.
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Old May 9 2014, 09:37 PM   #32
George Steinbrenner
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

I love what the novels have done with Ralph Offenhouse, actually:

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Old May 10 2014, 06:27 AM   #33
robau
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

Troi once referred to marriage as archaic, for what that's worth. I wonder how many actual marriages take place as opposed to two people simply having children. It's not like there's any tax incentives in the utopia. Religion doesn't seem to play much of a role either.
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Old May 10 2014, 09:45 AM   #34
Elvira
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
I was just disagreeing with Smellincoffee.
And I would never take that away from you.



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Old May 10 2014, 02:31 PM   #35
JirinPanthosa
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

Let's also please not equate the 'Traditional family unit' with 'Family'. The concept of what a family means is something that comes from the people trying to build one, not something that tries to replicate some fantasy from the 1950s.

Yes, in the 24th Century in Starfleet you probably don't see a lot of white picket fences and 2.3 children where the mother eagerly awaits the return of her husband with dinner on the table. But you have family units who mean every bit as much to each other as the people who had those white picket fences, and neither image of family is better or worse than the other.

And, question. You see the government getting involved in child care as a bad thing, but you're totally in favor of the government deciding what constitutes marriage? I say let marriage be a personal thing totally separate from the government and offer free child care to working families.
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Old May 10 2014, 08:12 PM   #36
Elvira
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
'Family' ...not something that tries to replicate some fantasy from the 1950s.
And for thousand of years before that across the world, and of course in the decades since "the 1950's".

Let's also please not equate the 'Traditional family unit' with 'Family'.
"Traditional family unit" refers to family in it's most commonly found forms, although (as you point out) not it sole forms.

You see the government getting involved in child care as a bad thing
Personally it would be a matter of degree, for the most part it should be as minimal as possible.

but you're totally in favor of the government deciding what constitutes marriage?
Government does (most places) decide what constitutes "legal" marriage.

I say let marriage be a personal thing totally separate from the government ...
Interesting idea, you mean no official government recognition of marriage at all?

... and offer free child care to working families.
According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, last year 20 percent of American families do not have a single person working.

While I'm not against individuals with specific problems obtaining assistance, the idea of universal free child care would be something I wouldn't support.

Would your idea require the child to go to a government child care facility, similar to the way in American if you want tax payer funded education your child usually has to go to a public school?

Or would the money be tied to the child who then could be sent to a private child care provider?

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Old May 10 2014, 10:54 PM   #37
2takesfrakes
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

Just to address the question of "why have government sanctioning marriage," there are many benefits - pertaining to tax relief and so on - that make it worthwhile to continue having Uncle Sam sign off on it.
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Old May 11 2014, 02:51 AM   #38
Elvira
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

It's also easier to obtain bank loans, mortgages, car loans and low interest credit cards, if you're married. Especially if the marriage involves two stead incomes.

(apparently it also gets your parent off your back)



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Old May 11 2014, 05:50 AM   #39
PhoenixClass
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

T'Girl wrote: View Post

While I'm not against individuals with specific problems obtaining assistance, the idea of universal free child care would be something I wouldn't support.
What about that policy do you find objectionable?
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Old May 11 2014, 09:43 AM   #40
Elvira
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

If individuals and families are capable of handling the matter, why bring in government?

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Old May 11 2014, 04:19 PM   #41
The Librarian
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
Taking a sabbatical from Starfleet or other job to raise a child would not be a problem.
A couple in Starfleet went on sabbatical in Brothers. They ditched their children on the Enterprise. Don't people usually take sabbaticals to spend time with family or something? They were dumped on Riker, one kid nearly killed himself, and the other was told it was all his fault. Parenting fail.
I think you'd be surprised at how often parents want to take a vacation and leave the kids behind with their grandparents/uncles/aunts/executive officers. Sometimes you need some time away to relax and not worry about having to manage the kids as well. It's just that normally you expect the temporary guardians will be a little more... competent.
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Old May 11 2014, 06:17 PM   #42
FormerLurker
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

In regards to goverment involvement in marriage, marriage would not exist in its current form without government involvement, dating back thousands of years. The marriage contract itself is a contract, not between the individuals involved, but between the couple as a unit, and the government.

Marriage was created as a means for a breeding couple to force the government to recognize both their relationship, and the family unit (including any and all children) that relationship formed. All couples at the time that did not have this contract forcing recognition found their families split up, and their property sold off by the government, against their will, when one member of the original couple died. Engaging the contract forced the government to recognize not only the constancy of the family unit, but the inheritance that unit provided to future generations.

As such, there is no marriage without direct government involvement.
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Old May 12 2014, 12:15 AM   #43
Vanyel
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

Don't most countries, including the United States, only require a legal, not religious marriage. Meaning a court or other government body marries a couple; then, only if the couple wants, or can afford a church wedding, they can have one. Effectively removing religion from marriage and not government? If that is right, I wonder why people are in such an uproar over same sex marriage.
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Old May 12 2014, 01:07 AM   #44
FormerLurker
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

You actually have it backward, as seen in my post above yours. Religion didn't get into the whole marriage thing until certain religious leaders realized they could make money requiring their congregants to marry 'in the church'. As far as same sex marriage, they were legal thousands of years ago. It wasn't until some busybody said "The only purpose of marriage is to have children" that that particular bugaboo was unleashed.
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Old May 13 2014, 08:58 PM   #45
patweb
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Re: The Neutral Zone, end of the Family unit?

FormerLurker wrote: View Post
In regards to goverment involvement in marriage, marriage would not exist in its current form without government involvement, dating back thousands of years. The marriage contract itself is a contract, not between the individuals involved, but between the couple as a unit, and the government.

Marriage was created as a means for a breeding couple to force the government to recognize both their relationship, and the family unit (including any and all children) that relationship formed. All couples at the time that did not have this contract forcing recognition found their families split up, and their property sold off by the government, against their will, when one member of the original couple died. Engaging the contract forced the government to recognize not only the constancy of the family unit, but the inheritance that unit provided to future generations.

As such, there is no marriage without direct government involvement.
I believe that marriage pre-dates government by several thousand years.
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