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Old May 4 2014, 10:15 PM   #46
publiusr
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

Christopher wrote: View Post
I don't see the need to bother rationalizing those things as parts of an "infinite multiverse." They're still completely separate and isolated from the main fictional universe and interaction is impossible. So what difference does it make? What's wrong with just letting them be stories?
Well, Worf might wind up with multiple Enterprises popping up once again, so you never know. It might be nice to see what happened with the one where the Borg wound up wiping everyone out....
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Old May 4 2014, 10:56 PM   #47
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

publiusr wrote: View Post
Well, Worf might wind up with multiple Enterprises popping up once again, so you never know. It might be nice to see what happened with the one where the Borg wound up wiping everyone out....
I believe there's actually a (quite good) Foundry mission on STO revisiting that reality. However, since all Foundry missions are player made, they aren't even part of the official STO lore.

As for the nature of the "entanglement" of the STO-verse and the novelverse, i'm with Cristopher. There simply is none.
They can't be branching timelines for one simple fact:
Nero
STO claims that Nero originated from the game's own timeline. All the evidence is there. Nero is mentioned by name, the Vault exists in game, Romulus is gone, the Tal Shiar builds more Narada-like ships etc.

Now, I don't see the novels not including the destruction of Romulus and Nero's involvement later on, as those events are hard canon.

So that's where we run into a bit of a problem. Nero (and by extension, Spock) can't originate from two alternate realities at the same time.
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Old May 4 2014, 11:03 PM   #48
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
None that I can see. Another possible contradiction between your work and STO is STO's cosmozoans (or rather since that term isn't used in STO, spaceborne lifeforms) A recently deleted STO mission named the "Galaxy's Child" species as the Gekli and said that they are symbiotic with a humanoid species called the Hylasa. Both are from fluidic space and are actively persecuted/genocided by the Undine.
Okay, never mind my work, that's a departure from actual screen canon. As Kes said of Species 8472 in "Scorpion," "They come from a place where they're alone. Nothing else lives there." Which I interpreted in Places of Exile to mean that all of fluidic space is a single collective organism with Species 8472 as its "immune system," essentially, fighting off infection.

"Scorpion" also established that fluidic space has no planetary bodies -- which was why I interpreted the tripedal, walking creatures we've seen as specially engineered to function in our universe, transformed using the technology we saw in "In the Flesh." So it's hard to see how humanoids could possibly exist in fluidic space. (Is there a reason this mission was deleted? Does that mean it's been removed from STO continuity, or just that it's been completed?)

In any case, that appears to prove that STO's version of fluidic space is incompatible with both the novelverse and screen canon, which seems to rule out the idea of STO as an alternate timeline of the novelverse -- unless you go for the soft canon/literary agent/unreliable narrator interpretation.
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Old May 4 2014, 11:17 PM   #49
Ayelbourne
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

Christopher wrote: View Post
"Scorpion" also established that fluidic space has no planetary bodies -- which was why I interpreted the tripedal, walking creatures we've seen as specially engineered to function in our universe, transformed using the technology we saw in "In the Flesh." So it's hard to see how humanoids could possibly exist in fluidic space. (Is there a reason this mission was deleted? Does that mean it's been removed from STO continuity, or just that it's been completed?)
It's been retconned as part of a revamp of all highlevel Borg/Undine-missions.
You lead a joint taskforce into fluidic space in order to clean up a Borg "infection", hoping to quell Undine aggression. While on that mission you witness unregistered Fed/KDF/Romulan ships attacking Undine forces. Analysis of said ship's wrecks reveals Iconian origin.
The Gekli and Hylasa involvement is gone. However in one of the new Undine 5-man missions, there's an optional objective to heal up a wounded Gekli on the way, so their origin still seems to be fluidic space.
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Old May 5 2014, 12:47 AM   #50
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

Ayelbourne wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
"Scorpion" also established that fluidic space has no planetary bodies -- which was why I interpreted the tripedal, walking creatures we've seen as specially engineered to function in our universe, transformed using the technology we saw in "In the Flesh." So it's hard to see how humanoids could possibly exist in fluidic space. (Is there a reason this mission was deleted? Does that mean it's been removed from STO continuity, or just that it's been completed?)
It's been retconned as part of a revamp of all highlevel Borg/Undine-missions.
You lead a joint taskforce into fluidic space in order to clean up a Borg "infection", hoping to quell Undine aggression. While on that mission you witness unregistered Fed/KDF/Romulan ships attacking Undine forces. Analysis of said ship's wrecks reveals Iconian origin.
The Gekli and Hylasa involvement is gone. However in one of the new Undine 5-man missions, there's an optional objective to heal up a wounded Gekli on the way, so their origin still seems to be fluidic space.
What about the mission with that telepath of an unnamed species who tries to negotiate with the Undine, fails, but leads the player character to an Iconian gateway constructed within fluidic space, proving that Iconians have been manipulating the Undine? Adding to that, how did the Iconians get into fluidic space in the first place?

I'm not sure if this concept has remained after the revamp to Borg/Undine front missions or not, but STO also showed solid/semisolid "planets" within fluidic space.

Oh, and as part of The Path to 2409 backstory to Star Trek Online, the Klingon Empire negotiates a treaty with the Orion Syndicate, explaining why KDF ships have Orion crewmembers. That, however, seems to conflict with I.K.S. Gorkon/Klingon Empire's notion that non-Klingons can only be menial crewmembers aboard KDF ships although things could possibly have changed in 30 years. But the Empire negotiates with a crime organization? What happened to the Orion state, the Orion Colonies? Also, STO may or may not acknowledge Rise of the Federation's concept of elite Orion lineages having the most effective pheromones.
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Old May 5 2014, 09:12 AM   #51
Ayelbourne
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
What about the mission with that telepath of an unnamed species who tries to negotiate with the Undine, fails, but leads the player character to an Iconian gateway constructed within fluidic space, proving that Iconians have been manipulating the Undine?
As i said, it's been retconned into what i wrote above.
Adding to that, how did the Iconians get into fluidic space in the first place?
Through a quantum singularity just like everybody else. Which makes sense, considering they are deliberately trying to pose as the alpha quadrant powers.

I'm not sure if this concept has remained after the revamp to Borg/Undine front missions or not, but STO also showed solid/semisolid "planets" within fluidic space.
The "clumps" serving as landmasses are still there. They lack artificial biodomes now, so beaming down would not be a good idea.
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Old May 5 2014, 09:24 AM   #52
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

Ayelbourne wrote: View Post
publiusr wrote: View Post
Well, Worf might wind up with multiple Enterprises popping up once again, so you never know. It might be nice to see what happened with the one where the Borg wound up wiping everyone out....
I believe there's actually a (quite good) Foundry mission on STO revisiting that reality. However, since all Foundry missions are player made, they aren't even part of the official STO lore.

As for the nature of the "entanglement" of the STO-verse and the novelverse, i'm with Cristopher. There simply is none.
They can't be branching timelines for one simple fact:
Nero
STO claims that Nero originated from the game's own timeline. All the evidence is there. Nero is mentioned by name, the Vault exists in game, Romulus is gone, the Tal Shiar builds more Narada-like ships etc.

Now, I don't see the novels not including the destruction of Romulus and Nero's involvement later on, as those events are hard canon.

So that's where we run into a bit of a problem. Nero (and by extension, Spock) can't originate from two alternate realities at the same time.
But ones virtually indistinguishable could originate from two similar realities. Which versions appeared in the Abramsverse 2233 and 2258 would be up to the reader to decide.

One could always use the discontinuities between movies and comics or movies and novels as a deciding factor as to which arrived where.
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Old May 5 2014, 08:58 PM   #53
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

I've remembered that in IDW's Alien Spotlight - "Borg", the Enterprise-E encounters assimilated members of Species 8472. Assuming that one believes that all Star Trek media are part of the same multiverse, which I don't, how does that factor into this debate?
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Old May 6 2014, 12:20 AM   #54
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

Weren't they from some kind of future or alternate universe? I read the issue when it first came out but don't remember the details. I just remember they weren't normal Borg.
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Old May 7 2014, 11:58 AM   #55
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

In STO, the Borg succeed once to assimilate several Undine. The Borg and its Undine are destroyed and all data pertaining to their assimilation are wiped from the vinculum by Starlfeet/KDF/RRF, preventing the Colelctive from introducing Undine drones... for now.

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
STO and the novelverse are two completely separately managed media projects. Are you saying that STO has stated that its fluidic space is the same as that of the novelverse? Because there is nothing like that in STO. The multiversal singularity interpretation of fluidic space is something unique to the novelverse mostly since Christopher is a novel author with the initiative to incorporate complex real-life physics into a Star Trek work.
STO does not contradict FS as presented in the novelverse. The absence of contradiction means its the same thing. That's how Memory Beta handles it. Presuming they're different because they happen to be produced by different media companies? I guess that means the Shore Leave Planet can't be the same either because one appeared in life-action and the other in animated form?

Ayelbourne wrote: View Post
They can't be branching timelines for one simple fact:
Nero
STO claims that Nero originated from the game's own timeline. All the evidence is there. Nero is mentioned by name, the Vault exists in game, Romulus is gone, the Tal Shiar builds more Narada-like ships etc.

Now, I don't see the novels not including the destruction of Romulus and Nero's involvement later on, as those events are hard canon.

So that's where we run into a bit of a problem. Nero (and by extension, Spock) can't originate from two alternate realities at the same time.
That's no problem at all. There weren't just one Nero and Spock traveling back in time, it where infinite Neros and Spocks across the multiverse. A pair of them ended up in one permutation of the mirror universe, for example,. (Star Trek Ongoing: Mirrored) There is another hypothetical precedent: The Defiant from "The Tholian Web" may not be the same as the one from "In a Mirror, Darkly". Christopher noticed they have different insignia. Who knows how many Defiants travelled back in time across the interdimensional divides?
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Old May 7 2014, 05:55 PM   #56
Christopher
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

Markonian wrote: View Post
STO does not contradict FS as presented in the novelverse.
It's already been established that it does blatantly contradict it, at least where its take on the "Galaxy's Child" space creatures and their humanoid symbionts is concerned. Although I'm not clear on whether that's been deleted from the game or not. And I'm sure STO doesn't portray Sp. 8472 the way I did, as using a flippered form to travel through fluidic space and only adopting a walking form to operate in our universe.


The absence of contradiction means its the same thing. That's how Memory Beta handles it.
Memory Beta isn't an arbiter of "reality," it's just a catalog of content from authorized tie-ins. It's descriptive rather than prescriptive. We're free as individual fans to make our own choices about how to interpret tie-in content. If two portrayals are compatible, that means it's possible to treat them as part of the same continuity if an individual fan chooses to. But it's hardly mandatory. We novelists are under contract and so we're obligated to follow certain rules from our employers -- but nobody's paying you to be a Trek fan. Memory Beta certainly isn't. So you're not obligated to treat its suggestions as inviolable commands.


Presuming they're different because they happen to be produced by different media companies? I guess that means the Shore Leave Planet can't be the same either because one appeared in life-action and the other in animated form?
That's a poor comparison. STO is made by a game company under license from CBS. TAS was produced by the company that owned the property at the time, Roddenberry's Norway Corporation, in direct collaboration with Filmation Associates.

Anyway, the answer is no. Companies have nothing to do with it. There are comics from Wildstorm and IDW that are in continuity with the Pocket novels. STO and Pocket could have chosen to do compatible continuities if they'd wanted to, but they didn't want to because the logistics would've been too difficult and the two projects had very dissimilar needs. And certainly as a fan you're free to reconcile any two things you think are reconcilable, since fandom is an exercise in individual choice and imagination rather than a service to a higher authority.


That's no problem at all. There weren't just one Nero and Spock traveling back in time, it where infinite Neros and Spocks across the multiverse.
I've already explained why that doesn't work. When dealing with timelines that actually interact with one another within a finite span of time, you're by definition dealing with a finite set of timelines, not an infinite one.


There is another hypothetical precedent: The Defiant from "The Tholian Web" may not be the same as the one from "In a Mirror, Darkly". Christopher noticed they have different insignia. Who knows how many Defiants travelled back in time across the interdimensional divides?
But I was absolutely not claiming them as randomly parallel realities in an "infinite" multiverse. As I've explained before, I reject that explanation in favor of the Many-Worlds parallel-timeline model, in which different timelines actually diverge from a common origin. I'm talking about two Defiants existing in slightly divergent quantum histories of the same universe, with the kind of trivial, cosmetic discrepancies we saw in the first half of TNG: "Parallels" or in the VGR novel Echoes. Both those works depict large numbers of parallels, but of course "large" is no closer to "infinite" than "one" is.
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Old May 8 2014, 02:08 AM   #57
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

Markonian wrote: View Post
Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
STO and the novelverse are two completely separately managed media projects. Are you saying that STO has stated that its fluidic space is the same as that of the novelverse? Because there is nothing like that in STO. The multiversal singularity interpretation of fluidic space is something unique to the novelverse mostly since Christopher is a novel author with the initiative to incorporate complex real-life physics into a Star Trek work.
STO does not contradict FS as presented in the novelverse. The absence of contradiction means its the same thing. That's how Memory Beta handles it. Presuming they're different because they happen to be produced by different media companies? I guess that means the Shore Leave Planet can't be the same either because one appeared in life-action and the other in animated form?
Christopher wrote: View Post
Memory Beta isn't an arbiter of "reality," it's just a catalog of content from authorized tie-ins. It's descriptive rather than prescriptive. We're free as individual fans to make our own choices about how to interpret tie-in content. If two portrayals are compatible, that means it's possible to treat them as part of the same continuity if an individual fan chooses to. But it's hardly mandatory. We novelists are under contract and so we're obligated to follow certain rules from our employers -- but nobody's paying you to be a Trek fan. Memory Beta certainly isn't. So you're not obligated to treat its suggestions as inviolable commands.
^Exactly what Christopher said. Markonian, you arrived at your conclusion on the basis of Memory Beta? Haven't you ever noticed all of the blatant contradictions on Memory Beta? Like with Tiaru Jarok? http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Tiaru_Jarok
There is no way that Tiaru Jarok of the novelverse and STO can have the same background. And in any case, Places of Exile concluded with the Groundskeepers/Species 8472 receiving that "Torres generator". So how do you explain how the Iconians of STO still managed to get into fluidic space? Or how Starfleet/KDF/RRF ships easily travel into fluidic space? I see a big contradiction in that.

Markonian wrote: View Post
That's no problem at all. There weren't just one Nero and Spock traveling back in time, it where infinite Neros and Spocks across the multiverse. A pair of them ended up in one permutation of the mirror universe, for example,. (Star Trek Ongoing: Mirrored) There is another hypothetical precedent: The Defiant from "The Tholian Web" may not be the same as the one from "In a Mirror, Darkly". Christopher noticed they have different insignia. Who knows how many Defiants travelled back in time across the interdimensional divides?
That's a plausible idea, but the Defiant insignia issue is a costuming error in production that doesn't necessarily have to have an in-universe explanation.

Christopher wrote: View Post
But I was absolutely not claiming them as randomly parallel realities in an "infinite" multiverse. As I've explained before, I reject that explanation in favor of the Many-Worlds parallel-timeline model, in which different timelines actually diverge from a common origin. I'm talking about two Defiants existing in slightly divergent quantum histories of the same universe, with the kind of trivial, cosmetic discrepancies we saw in the first half of TNG: "Parallels" or in the VGR novel Echoes. Both those works depict large numbers of parallels, but of course "large" is no closer to "infinite" than "one" is.
So Christopher, do you agree with the concept that an interaction with an interphasic phenomenon can spawn multiple offshoots of objects that travel through (i.e. the artificial black hole in 2387 multiplied the Narada and Jellyfish so that there is one set each for Abramsverse, mirror, Abramsverse, possibly the gender-swapped Abramsverse, etc?)
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Old May 8 2014, 03:44 AM   #58
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
So Christopher, do you agree with the concept that an interaction with an interphasic phenomenon can spawn multiple offshoots of objects that travel through (i.e. the artificial black hole in 2387 multiplied the Narada and Jellyfish so that there is one set each for Abramsverse, mirror, Abramsverse, possibly the gender-swapped Abramsverse, etc?)
Err, no, that doesn't follow. For one thing, a black hole isn't interphasic. For another, you're mistaking my suggestion. After all, if the two Defiants (the one recovered by the da Vinci in Invincible and the one that fell into the 22nd-century Mirror Universe) have different uniform insignia, then obviously their divergence was not caused by entering the interphase in Tholian space; they were already different before that point. I'm proposing two pre-existing, spontaneously branched quantum parallels that had near-identical histories, so that in both, the events of "The Tholian Web" happened essentially identically, with a trivial difference in the Defiant insignia design, a difference that would have arisen years earlier but had no measurable effect on the flow of history.

The idea that the interphase itself caused the ship to split was my old hypothesis, before I learned of the insignia discrepancy. Obviously if one Defiant went in and was split into more than one, they would all have the same insignia.
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Old May 8 2014, 06:29 PM   #59
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Re: Star Trek Online timeline divergence

Memory Beta I cited as an example; it isn't the origin of my perception. I chose to perceive everything existing in one multiverse because I like the thought of "anything goes".

I admit, however, that under close scrutiny, it doesn't make much sense based on the various arguments in this thread. In another review thread, Dark Mirror is explained to incompatible with modern novelverse continuity not because the Empire lived but the physics are significantly different (plot point) and yet history is largely the same in the primary universe.

I began reading ST fiction just two years before STO launched, so it has been perfectly normal for me to deal with two conflicting timelines. Three German sci-fi/"phantastic" series I've been reading each feature divergent timelines, and because they had the same mother company there were hints that the different series might actually take place in the same multiverse.

For example, the comet Christopher-Floyd hits/misses Earth (depending on timeline) in two series (one set in a ST-like space opera, the other in the postapolyptic Sol System). One of my favourite novel titles is Maddrax No. 321 "Around the Day in 80 Worlds" (Cover image (German): http://www.maddrax.de/main.php?uid=b...heftnav.nr.321)

Anyway, I yield.

(Just for fun: MX No. 44: http://www.maddrax.de/main.php?uid=b....heftnav.nr.44
Anything familiar? )
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