RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,579
Posts: 5,403,199
Members: 24,865
Currently online: 493
Newest member: shyrim

TrekToday headlines

October-November 2014 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Cho Selfie TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

TPTB To Shatner: Shhh!
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Mystery Mini Vinyl Figure Display Box
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

The Red Shirt Diaries Episode Five
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

Shatner In Trek 3? Well Maybe
By: T'Bonz on Sep 28

Retro Review: Shadows and Symbols
By: Michelle on Sep 27

Meyer: Revitalizing Star Trek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 26

Trek Costumes To Be Auctioned
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25

Hulu Snaps up Abrams-Produced Drama
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 29 2014, 12:22 AM   #31
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

I'll never understand how people can confuse a race that transplanted existing populations a few hundred years ago with a race that seeded the evolution of entire biospheres four billion years ago. Why do people assume everything in the past happened at the same time?

I guess the conceit of them going into hibernation makes a little more sense, except there's no reason the two should be associated at all, besides the metatextual reason that they're both excuses for humanoid aliens.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2014, 02:34 AM   #32
Enterprise1701
Fleet Captain
 
Enterprise1701's Avatar
 
Location: Sol III, Sector 001, 2014 C.E.
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

Christopher wrote: View Post
I'll never understand how people can confuse a race that transplanted existing populations a few hundred years ago with a race that seeded the evolution of entire biospheres four billion years ago. Why do people assume everything in the past happened at the same time?

I guess the conceit of them going into hibernation makes a little more sense, except there's no reason the two should be associated at all, besides the metatextual reason that they're both excuses for humanoid aliens.
I can sympathize with your frustration here. According to Memory Alpha, Ronald D. Moore said back in the 1990s that he had considered but did not end up using the interpretation that the progenitor humanoids were the Preservers. He noted, however that
but this could be them and be internally consistent
There's no reasonable way that it could be true in the novelverse given what your novel The Buried Age says that the Manraloth did, though, can there?
Enterprise1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2014, 03:42 AM   #33
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
According to Memory Alpha, Ronald D. Moore said back in the 1990s that he had considered but did not end up using the interpretation that the progenitor humanoids were the Preservers. He noted, however that
but this could be them and be internally consistent
There's no reasonable way that it could be true in the novelverse given what your novel The Buried Age says that the Manraloth did, though, can there?
Well, it wasn't reasonable anyway. It makes no sense to expect a single species, let alone a single civilization, to survive for four billion years. That's just fundamentally failing to comprehend how big a billion is. (Okay, the Q are billions of years old, but they're presumably not corporeal, organic beings.)

Not to mention, again, that the two races have nothing whatsoever in common aside from being excuses for humanoid aliens. One engineered biospheres on the genetic level, one simply transplanted existing cultures.

Not to mention that the Preservers simply aren't advanced enough to be four billion years old. They didn't demonstrate any technological capability beyond what the 24th-century Federation has -- just space travel, powerful tractor beams, voice-activated locks, and memory-wiping rays. They were far from godlike.

The problem is that so little was established about them that there's an enormous void for people to fill in with their imaginations, and in circumstances like that, people tend to go to extremes with their imaginings. So the Preservers have been blown up into this mythic, ancient, nigh-divine cosmic force, when there's no actual basis to ascribe such qualities to them. For all we know, they were just a space Greenpeace, an organization rather than a species. Heck, I still think they were the Vians from "The Empath," who were doing the exact same thing.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2014, 04:33 AM   #34
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

Markonian, I have an off topic general MMO question. Is there a reason you couldn't have horses in an MMO? I read in an article that the creators of the Defiance TV show wanted to include horses, but they couldn't because they couldn't include them in the game. I just find this kind of confusing because tons of games have included horse, including (I think) all of the Assassin's Creed games, Red Dead Redemtion, and (I think) Skyrim. Is it something to do with the Deifance game being an MMO?
__________________
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2014, 09:31 AM   #35
Markonian
Captain
 
Markonian's Avatar
 
Location: Leipzig, Saxony
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

JD wrote: View Post
Markonian, I have an off topic general MMO question. Is there a reason you couldn't have horses in an MMO? I read in an article that the creators of the Defiance TV show wanted to include horses, but they couldn't because they couldn't include them in the game. I just find this kind of confusing because tons of games have included horse, including (I think) all of the Assassin's Creed games, Red Dead Redemtion, and (I think) Skyrim. Is it something to do with the Deifance game being an MMO?
I'm no expert apart from playing STO and keeping taps on dev posts. Theoretically, you can have horses in STO, like any other quadroped. However, you wouldn't be able to ride on it.
To include riding would include tweaking every costume to fold in the right way, new animations (sit up, sit down, galloping, runnin, using gear (i.e. shooting) while on horse, etc.), and making it possible for humanoids of every available size. A huge undertaking for something that, in the early 25th century, would be outdated. (The devs, however, are taking steps to introduce ground vehicles like the Argo because the Star Wars MMO has that already.)

In short: horses are possible, riding would be a time-consuming effort.
__________________
1.000 years: University Leipzig, 1409-2409
Gorn to be wild!
Markonian is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 2 2014, 06:00 AM   #36
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

Sounds like that would probably be the reason for Defiance too.
__________________
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 3 2014, 12:13 AM   #37
Mojomoe
Commander
 
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

^JD, I might also be able to shed some light on your question. I'm an art director in AAA games development, and I've had hands-on experience with the types of things you're mentioning.

You guys are on the money with the prime issue being, well, money . As with what was brought up earlier in this thread, anything that can share a 'skeleton' as we call it, can significantly reduce production costs, hence the proliferation of human-shaped aliens in STO. For a development team to create something that has a different body structure, it requires many things - planning, r&d, modeling, rigging, weighting, animating, pathing, and AI. A different body shape requires it to move differently, react differently with its environment, and also possibly requires a brand new set of movements - what we call an animation tree.

The other thing to note is that the budgets of said games might not be apparent to the end user, but those ones you mentioned are in drastically different budget categories. Assassin's Creed (Ubisoft), Red Dead Redemption (Rockstar), and Skyrim (Bethesda) are all massive projects being made by hundreds (if not thousands) of people, over sometimes 3-5 development studios split all over the globe. I would wager none of them has a budget of less than $50 million, and as much as $130M. I don't know the budget of Defiance, but if I would guess it's a medium-sized dev team of less than 200 people, and a budget in the neighborhood of $15-30 million. Adding a horse might be the difference between having one or two genders of main character, or even - when drastic cuts happen - between finishing the game or not.
__________________
-----------
"Not enough... The world is not enough."
"Foolish sentiment."
"...Family motto."
Mojomoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 3 2014, 04:43 AM   #38
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

Mojomoe wrote: View Post
For a development team to create something that has a different body structure, it requires many things - planning, r&d, modeling, rigging, weighting, animating, pathing, and AI. A different body shape requires it to move differently, react differently with its environment, and also possibly requires a brand new set of movements - what we call an animation tree.
Which is why I'm saying that it would be nice if the developers of a new SF game would make the effort to build multiple basic body structures into their game from the ground up, accounting for such variety in their initial planning and budgeting, so that we could see some genuinely imaginative aliens rather than just humanoids all the time.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 3 2014, 02:24 PM   #39
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mojomoe wrote: View Post
For a development team to create something that has a different body structure, it requires many things - planning, r&d, modeling, rigging, weighting, animating, pathing, and AI. A different body shape requires it to move differently, react differently with its environment, and also possibly requires a brand new set of movements - what we call an animation tree.
Which is why I'm saying that it would be nice if the developers of a new SF game would make the effort to build multiple basic body structures into their game from the ground up, accounting for such variety in their initial planning and budgeting, so that we could see some genuinely imaginative aliens rather than just humanoids all the time.
Games like these are stuck in boringzone. Always the same 4-5 character archetypes (healer, warrior, blabla), and always the same humanoid avatars.
I think developers wouldn't take the "risk" of changing those things.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 12:59 PM   #40
Markonian
Captain
 
Markonian's Avatar
 
Location: Leipzig, Saxony
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

I forgot to mention that while the humanoid body plan (torso, head, 4 extremities) is the basis, you can cary the sizes of body parts like limbs, allowing for very alien characters who are tiny, big-eyed and have enormously bulbous heads. Or they can be big with absurdly small, deformed heads.
__________________
1.000 years: University Leipzig, 1409-2409
Gorn to be wild!
Markonian is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 02:04 PM   #41
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

^Yeah, but it's still the default to bipedal shapes that I find disappointing in so many SF/space opera works that should be free to diverge from it due to not requiring live actors. There's so much more anatomical variety than that just here on Earth.

I find it a continual source of disappointment that TOS, which was made with less advanced technology and a lower budget than its successors, was nonetheless willing to depict more exotic alien types -- Horta, Sylvia & Korob's species, tribbles, the space amoeba, Melkot, Tholians, Excalbians. Plus bipedal "monsters" like the Gorn and Mugato, weird aliens in human disguise like the Kelvans, and assorted gaseous clouds and energy beings. Despite having more limited resources to create aliens, TOS was willing to be more creative with them. And TAS prided itself on its freedom to create even more exotic creature designs. But the later shows were hemmed in by Roddenberry's insistence that every alien species should have something recognizably human in their design, and thus they ended up being far less creative and ambitious in their alien designs than the original two series were.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 10:04 PM   #42
Enterprise1701
Fleet Captain
 
Enterprise1701's Avatar
 
Location: Sol III, Sector 001, 2014 C.E.
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Yeah, but it's still the default to bipedal shapes that I find disappointing in so many SF/space opera works that should be free to diverge from it due to not requiring live actors. There's so much more anatomical variety than that just here on Earth.

I find it a continual source of disappointment that TOS, which was made with less advanced technology and a lower budget than its successors, was nonetheless willing to depict more exotic alien types -- Horta, Sylvia & Korob's species, tribbles, the space amoeba, Melkot, Tholians, Excalbians. Plus bipedal "monsters" like the Gorn and Mugato, weird aliens in human disguise like the Kelvans, and assorted gaseous clouds and energy beings. Despite having more limited resources to create aliens, TOS was willing to be more creative with them. And TAS prided itself on its freedom to create even more exotic creature designs. But the later shows were hemmed in by Roddenberry's insistence that every alien species should have something recognizably human in their design, and thus they ended up being far less creative and ambitious in their alien designs than the original two series were.
I suppose you're right, but in fairness to the others, TNG had the ultra-incorporeal Q, DS9 had the Founders, and Voyager had live-action Groundskeepers/Species 8472.
Enterprise1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 11:05 PM   #43
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

^Yeah, but such exotic aliens were far less commonly used in the later series. Fortunately there was an effort to add more variety in ENT, thanks to improving and increasingly affordable CG animation.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2014, 02:14 AM   #44
Enterprise1701
Fleet Captain
 
Enterprise1701's Avatar
 
Location: Sol III, Sector 001, 2014 C.E.
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Yeah, but such exotic aliens were far less commonly used in the later series. Fortunately there was an effort to add more variety in ENT, thanks to improving and increasingly affordable CG animation.
Well if looks aren't good enough for you, take a look at what an STO Iconian can actually do. http://youtu.be/rLhOskDgWgw?t=21m
Enterprise1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2014, 03:35 AM   #45
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Would you want the STO Iconian look in the novelverse? - SPOILERS

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Well if looks aren't good enough for you, take a look at what an STO Iconian can actually do. http://youtu.be/rLhOskDgWgw?t=21m
Err, that's the last thing that's going to satisfy my desire for credibly designed alien biology and behavior.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
iconian, novelverse, star trek online

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.