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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 27 2014, 05:31 PM   #46
mb22
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Re: The Cage episode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpnuULBPF5s
Picnic scene at around 25:00 into the video
Laser scene at 39:00.

Check it out.
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Old March 28 2014, 02:44 AM   #47
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Re: The Cage episode

Aha. Not there.
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Old March 28 2014, 07:23 PM   #48
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Re: The Cage episode

You sure? Because I forwarded the video to the picnic scene and I definitely heard Pike use the phrase "wild little animal". Yeah, he does say it quickly, almost until his breath, but Hunter does say the line.

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Old March 29 2014, 08:47 PM   #49
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Re: The Cage episode

I meant those other two lines were not there. "Probing you, searching for weakness" and "Do you want to gamble we won't?"
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Old March 30 2014, 12:35 AM   #50
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Re: The Cage episode

Oh, sorry for the confusion.

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Bill
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Old March 31 2014, 05:51 AM   #51
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Re: The Cage episode

I just played back MeTV's cut-for-commercials, TOS-R version of "The Menagerie" Part II on my DVR, and "wild little animal" line is intact. And I'm happy to hear it.
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Old March 31 2014, 02:55 PM   #52
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Re: The Cage episode

Ah, but that's The Managerie two-parter. It's The Cage that's missing it.
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Old April 16 2014, 04:32 AM   #53
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Re: The Cage episode

BoredShipCapt'n wrote: View Post
scotpens wrote: View Post
Some of the other cuts, IIRC:


Just before the Orion slave girl illusion, the Keeper remarks: "A curious species. They have fantasies they hide even from themselves."

That line was actually "spoken" by the second Talosian. In the color DVD version of The Cage, it's been misattributed to the Keeper and correspondingly raised in pitch. Easy mistake to make when they don't move their lips.
What a slapdash effort this "Restored Version" was (at least on the DVD; the Blu-ray might be different). Not only did they wrongly alter the pitch on the other Talosian's line and completely omit the "wild little animal" line, but they screwed up the music in the Orion sequence.

When the rock wall appears behind Pike, the music is supposed to fade out - he turns around in reaction to the sudden silence. In the "Restored Version," the music doesn't fade out and he turns around for no reason.
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Old April 17 2014, 08:55 PM   #54
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Re: The Cage episode

BoredShipCapt'n wrote: View Post
scotpens wrote: View Post
Some of the other cuts, IIRC:

Just before the Orion slave girl illusion, the Keeper remarks: "A curious species. They have fantasies they hide even from themselves."
That line was actually "spoken" by the second Talosian. In the color DVD version of The Cage, it's been misattributed to the Keeper and correspondingly raised in pitch. Easy mistake to make when they don't move their lips.
In checking the Final Draft script (November 20, 1964) for "The Cage," the script indicates:

***********

SCENE 101 MED CLOSE - KEEPER

watching the screen, forehead veins throbbing, as if reading deep into the thoughts of the two. Then:

THE KEEPER
A curious species. He has
fantasies he hides even from
himself.

**********

Why do you think it was supposed to have been the First Talosian that was delivering the line, instead of The Keeper?
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Old April 18 2014, 06:14 PM   #55
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Re: The Cage episode

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
In checking the Final Draft script (November 20, 1964) for "The Cage," the script indicates:

***********

SCENE 101 MED CLOSE - KEEPER

watching the screen, forehead veins throbbing, as if reading deep into the thoughts of the two. Then:

THE KEEPER
A curious species. He has
fantasies he hides even from
himself.

**********

Why do you think it was supposed to have been the First Talosian that was delivering the line, instead of The Keeper?
Because the voice (both in its original pitch and in its altered pitch) doesn't sound like Malachi Throne, and because the other Talosian looks over at the Keeper in a way that suggests "saying" the line to him.
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Old April 19 2014, 03:50 PM   #56
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Re: The Cage episode

BoredShipCapt'n wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
In checking the Final Draft script (November 20, 1964) for "The Cage," the script indicates:

***********

SCENE 101 MED CLOSE - KEEPER

watching the screen, forehead veins throbbing, as if reading deep into the thoughts of the two. Then:

THE KEEPER
A curious species. He has
fantasies he hides even from
himself.

**********

Why do you think it was supposed to have been the First Talosian that was delivering the line, instead of The Keeper?
Because the voice (both in its original pitch and in its altered pitch) doesn't sound like Malachi Throne, and because the other Talosian looks over at the Keeper in a way that suggests "saying" the line to him.
I doubled back and checked out the two versions of "The Cage" on the old, original "two episodes per disc" DVDs. The old black and white work print footage of the scene in question with the original deep Malachi Throne sounds like, well, Malachi Throne to me--and seems to match the few other work print clips that contain his voice. The other version of "The Cage" included on the disc (with the "recently" found missing color footage, and with Throne's voice raised in pitch to match the rest of the cannibalized footage from "The Menagerie") also sounds like Throne to me.

I always thought the First Talosian turning to watch The Keeper during this bit of dialogue was meant to convey that the First Talosian was being attentive to what his boss The Keeper was "saying," not that he was, himself "saying" the line.

It's interesting: there's been a slight editing change in the latest remastered version of "The Cage." As the "a curious species" is being delivered, the two-shot of the Talosians is not the same shot as it had been; it does not now have the First Talosian glancing at The Keeper. Their attention is focused on the screen for the full three-second shot.

However, the "glance at The Keeper" three second shot is used: it shows up in the remastered version as Vina delivers the "A person's strongest dreams are about what he can't do" line. Interestingly, in the original version, the camera stays on Susan Oliver during her lines. Now, it cuts away in the middle of her dialogue to the "glance at The Keeper" two shot. So now, the First Talosian glances over at The Keeper, apparently in response to Vina's observations about Pike.
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Old April 29 2014, 11:30 AM   #57
drt
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Re: The Cage episode

I've just watched both pilots on the BluRays, to be honest, I'm not really seeing a big difference in the "cerebral" vs. "action" quotient when comparing the two (other than the timing of WNMHGB's fight happening in the last act, which is maybe for what the network was looking). This has probably been brought up before, but it makes me think Roddenberry's "too cerebral" bit is bunk, and the network wanted other changes instead. Probably things he didn't fully agree with, so he has to belittle those changes as a "dumbing down" of his initial concept.

One other thing: this was probably the first time I ever watched them back-to-back, when doing so I was struck by how much higher the production values are for the "The Cage", something I'd never really noted before.
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Old April 29 2014, 04:40 PM   #58
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Re: The Cage episode

^^^There may be some truth to the idea that GR was just having a sour grapes attack over the pilot's rejection. However, I do think there is a ring of truth to the idea that he and his team lost sight of the original goal which was to produce an entertaining weekly series. "The Cage" is damn good ("too good for television" may be a stretch) as a stand-alone movie. Remember, that up to then the standard for "quality sci-fi" was "Forbidden Planet". This was an attempt to reach beyond that and as Roddenberry said they went for something proud. It doesn't seem too far-fetched that the network might have been impressed with the efffort, but disappointed that what they were promised was not what they got delivered.
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Old May 5 2014, 11:43 PM   #59
publiusr
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Re: The Cage episode

In the same way Jason still had a little wild redneck to him in ther second Friday the 13th movie, there was just a little of the 1950-ish take to The Cage, that quickly wore off.
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Old May 6 2014, 10:48 PM   #60
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Re: The Cage episode

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I doubled back and checked out the two versions of "The Cage" on the old, original "two episodes per disc" DVDs. The old black and white work print footage of the scene in question with the original deep Malachi Throne sounds like, well, Malachi Throne to me--and seems to match the few other work print clips that contain his voice. The other version of "The Cage" included on the disc (with the "recently" found missing color footage, and with Throne's voice raised in pitch to match the rest of the cannibalized footage from "The Menagerie") also sounds like Throne to me.

I always thought the First Talosian turning to watch The Keeper during this bit of dialogue was meant to convey that the First Talosian was being attentive to what his boss The Keeper was "saying," not that he was, himself "saying" the line.

It's interesting: there's been a slight editing change in the latest remastered version of "The Cage." As the "a curious species" is being delivered, the two-shot of the Talosians is not the same shot as it had been; it does not now have the First Talosian glancing at The Keeper. Their attention is focused on the screen for the full three-second shot.

However, the "glance at The Keeper" three second shot is used: it shows up in the remastered version as Vina delivers the "A person's strongest dreams are about what he can't do" line. Interestingly, in the original version, the camera stays on Susan Oliver during her lines. Now, it cuts away in the middle of her dialogue to the "glance at The Keeper" two shot. So now, the First Talosian glances over at The Keeper, apparently in response to Vina's observations about Pike.
Thanks for your research on this. I could easily have been mistaken. The two voices are fairly similar.

All the more reason the full black-and-white version should be released for reference purposes!
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