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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 1 2014, 06:23 PM   #166
BigKrampus
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Agenda wrote: View Post
Of the films you mention above, the only ones that Orci and Kurtzman produced, rather than simply writing, were Cowboys and Aliens and Spidey 2.
Admittedly that is not a terribly encouraging sign.
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Old May 1 2014, 06:26 PM   #167
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

drt wrote: View Post
ST'09 was filmed during the writer's strike, so they weren't allowed to make writing changes on the fly for that one.
Not during most of shooting, but definitely toward the end and in editing and post-production. You'd be surprised how much a film's content can be changed after filming by redubbing and selectively editing the dialogue. I recall reading an article about how they were actually able to use CGI to alter Leonard Nimoy's mouth movements to fit redubbed dialogue. My understanding is that the entire Spock Prime mind-meld sequence, which contains the most ludicrous science in the movie (the whole ridiculous portrayal of the supernova and how it's "stopped"), was constructed quite late in post-production and was substantially altered from what was originally planned.

Now, if you think the films that Orci and Kurtzman had a hand in producing were unsatisfying, that's your prerogative. I'm just trying to clarify the process. As a general rule, unless the credited writers of a film are also producing or directing, you cannot safely assume that the finished film reflects what those writers actually wrote in their drafts of the script, or what they would have written if they'd been controlling the process rather than following the director's orders. You can't even safely assume that the credited writers are responsible for a single word of dialogue you hear in the film. That's why so many Hollywood screenwriters have their names on films that run the gamut from brilliant to awful.
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Old May 1 2014, 06:33 PM   #168
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

BigJake wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
]Of the films you mention above, the only ones that Orci and Kurtzman produced, rather than simply writing, were Cowboys and Aliens and Spidey 2.
Admittedly that is not a terribly encouraging sign.
Hey, PEOPLE LIKE US was pretty.... eh, yeah.
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Old May 1 2014, 08:55 PM   #169
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Christopher wrote: View Post
You can't even safely assume that the credited writers are responsible for a single word of dialogue you hear in the film.
No.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
Agenda wrote: View Post
I don't know why this guy gets such a free pass in this industry.
Because his movies are hugely popular and have made hundreds of millions of dollars.

That's the way it works.
Yup. A lot of junk gets rewarded as the box office and those people get more work to make more junk. Sad but true.
Yup. Movies that lots of people actually want to see get rewarded at the box office. Movies that not many people want to see - you know, like the last few oldTrek movies - lose out.

What's "sad" about that? You think there's some other way that things should work? Is it that you think studios owe some small number of people access to their resources, or that you think most people are somehow less than bright or deserving?

You know what's really an inferior product? A product that people don't want.

(Yes, commercial films are products. Surprise!)
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Old May 1 2014, 09:20 PM   #170
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Dennis wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
You can't even safely assume that the credited writers are responsible for a single word of dialogue you hear in the film.
No.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post

Because his movies are hugely popular and have made hundreds of millions of dollars.

That's the way it works.
Yup. A lot of junk gets rewarded as the box office and those people get more work to make more junk. Sad but true.
Yup. Movies that lots of people actually want to see get rewarded at the box office. Movies that not many people want to see - you know, like the last few oldTrek movies - lose out.
The last few oldTrek films got what they deserved at the box office, a fine case of subpar films not getting rewarded.

What's "sad" about that? You think there's some other way that things should work? Is it that you think studios owe some small number of people access to their resources, or that you think most people are somehow less than bright or deserving?

You know what's really an inferior product? A product that people don't want.

(Yes, commercial films are products. Surprise!)
Honestly, I don't give a shit what people want. What I want is better writing in films. A lot of studios just crank out films with subpar scripts because they know that the spectacle is what will sell these films, not quality scripts. Nothing wrong with wanting spectacle, but I'd like a little more than just a plot strung together by action sequences and cliches. I'm not asking for endless conference meetings where characters explain everything and bore everyone.

I don't mind STAR TREK being turned into summer spectacle, but I'd like better writing and less cliches. Is that asking too much?
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Old May 1 2014, 10:46 PM   #171
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Honestly, I don't give a shit what people want. What I want is better writing in films. A lot of studios just crank out films with subpar scripts because they know that the spectacle is what will sell these films, not quality scripts. Nothing wrong with wanting spectacle, but I'd like a little more than just a plot strung together by action sequences and cliches. I'm not asking for endless conference meetings where characters explain everything and bore everyone.

I don't mind STAR TREK being turned into summer spectacle, but I'd like better writing and less cliches. Is that asking too much?
Then stop paying for theater tickets and DVDs/blu rays for films like these. Vote with your wallet.
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Old May 2 2014, 12:05 AM   #172
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Honestly, I don't give a shit what people want.
Yeah, it's always kind of amusing to see people talk like they're unofficial bean-counters for the movie studio.
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Old May 2 2014, 12:18 AM   #173
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

BigJake wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Honestly, I don't give a shit what people want.
Yeah, it's always kind of amusing to see people talk like they're unofficial bean-counters for the movie studio.
Not hard to get a reading on these things. If a $150 million dollar movie sells $400 million in tickets and a sequel is greenlit, the studio would generally be happy. If a $150 million dollar film grosses $75 million and is never talked about again, the studio would generally be unhappy.
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Old May 2 2014, 12:25 AM   #174
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Then stop paying for theater tickets and DVDs/blu rays for films like these. Vote with your wallet.
It's a good point you make, though I didn't bother with the dvd/blu-rays, I did buy those tickets. Both times I was optimistic about them, even after ST09 I still gave STID a shot because it looked more like a Star Trek story now that we had gotten past the origin stories. I love Star Trek and I give everything a shot before deciding to stop. I watched ENTERPRISE for the first several episodes before giving up.

After two disappointments, I likely won't see that third film, especially if Orci and the Bad Robot crew are still heavily involved.

BigJake wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Honestly, I don't give a shit what people want.
Yeah, it's always kind of amusing to see people talk like they're unofficial bean-counters for the movie studio.
I think a lot of fans get wrapped up in the box office stuff because they genuinely want to see Trek return as a popular entity after NEMESIS and ENTERPRISE tanking. I am glad that Trek has become popular again. I do see the positives of nuTrek such as new fans starting to discover the older shows and films.
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Old May 2 2014, 12:49 AM   #175
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

BillJ wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Honestly, I don't give a shit what people want.
Yeah, it's always kind of amusing to see people talk like they're unofficial bean-counters for the movie studio.
Not hard to get a reading on these things. If a $150 million dollar movie sells $400 million in tickets and a sequel is greenlit, the studio would generally be happy. If a $150 million dollar film grosses $75 million and is never talked about again, the studio would generally be unhappy.
Way to completely miss the point there.
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Old May 2 2014, 01:01 AM   #176
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

BigJake wrote: View Post
Actually TMP is the top-grossing movie in adjusted dollars by the worldwide numbers.
BigJake wrote: View Post
Interestingly, in terms of profitability it's STID and not ST09 that ranks second (ST09 comes in fifth behind TVH and TWOK).
BigJake wrote: View Post
Yeah, it's always kind of amusing to see people talk like they're unofficial bean-counters for the movie studio.
.
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Old May 2 2014, 01:06 AM   #177
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Honestly, I don't give a shit what people want.
The feeling is undoubtedly mutual. It's decided then: movie studios will continue to make movies that they think lots of people will like.
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Old May 2 2014, 02:10 AM   #178
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Dennis wrote: View Post
It's decided then: movie studios will continue to make movies that they think will make a lot of profit.
FIFY
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Old May 2 2014, 02:37 AM   #179
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

thumbtack wrote: View Post
.
Cute, I'll give you that. But knowing something about box office numbers and believing one is an ambassador for the studio's profits are different things.
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Old May 2 2014, 03:54 AM   #180
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
I don't understand this 9/11 Truther parable accusation?
If anything the film maps to historical reality rather than conspiracy theory: Marcus ( Bush ) capitalizes on Khan's ( Bin Laden's ) terrorism in order to further his agenda of a war against the Klingons ( Iraq ).
That just doesn't make sense. How is Admiral Marcus any different than Admiral Leyton? President Bush was The President, the top dog, that was the defining characteristic of the whole thing. You can't just slide in an Admiral going rogue and say it's the same thing, especially, when Trek has already done this basic plot with an Admiral, years before 09/11/2001.
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