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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old April 29 2014, 10:26 PM   #151
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

What happened to Orci wanting to start a new Trek show? If he were ever to start directing Trek, that probably would have been the most obvious route to go as opposed to a multi-million dollar tentpole film.
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Old April 29 2014, 10:34 PM   #152
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post

STID features an internal Section 31 faction (represented by Admiral Marcus) that arguably schemes to generate false-flag terrorist attacks on the Federation in order to justify war with the Klingon Empire. The parallel with Truther theories about 9-11 and the Iraq War seems obvious to some... I can't really get there, but I wouldn't rule out that it's what they were going for.
But, 9/11 Truther stuff was a direct attack on Pres. Bush and VP Darth Cheney. There is no President, whatsoever involved in STiD, it was a Rogue Admiral doing it (presumably) behind The President's back.

If you're going to apply it to any Rogue Admirals and so on down the line, anytime, anyone in Government/The Military has gone Rogue in any movie, since the 9/11 Attacks could be levelled with that same accusation, and you could also accuse the 9/11 Truther believers of stealing the idea from any movies with a Rogue Government/Military official that were made prior to 09/11/01
I'd disregard the 9/11 truther stuff, but given Orci's involvement and the way things play out in the film, I'm not easy to dismiss it as a rehashed James Bond plot. They don't have to have the top president to make it a 9/11 truther parable, that would be too obvious and I can imagine the studio heads would have been hesitant to go that route. Instead it's someone who's the top head of Starfleet making the call. But then you have Khan using the Vengeance to crash into a city and in the credits there's a direct reference to 9/11. It's a sloppy parable, but it's close enough that I can't really get into it because it gets too close.
Eh...Agree to disagree. The Link to The President is the defining characteristic of 9/11 Trutherism. Definitely something there about Terrorism, no denying, but, not 9/11 Trutherism, without the link to the President. Far, far, closer to DS9 Admiral Leyton in Paradise Lost, IMHO.
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Old April 29 2014, 10:50 PM   #153
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Abrams, Lindelof, Kurtzman, Orci, they're all guilty as far as I'm concerned.
They're guilty of making the first Trek movies in a decade that weren't boring-ass wankfests.
Reread what you quoted:

"As far as I'm concerned".
As far as I'm concerned your statement was so hyperbolic and intemperate as to be worthy of criticism. That you doubled down by invoking the hypothetical feelings of unidentified people affected by the 9/11 attacks to justify picking at a movie you don't like exacerbated that.
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Old April 29 2014, 11:56 PM   #154
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Untrue. I'm not looking for justifications to "pick at" these films. If that's how it came off to you, I'm clarifying to you now that it's not the case.
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Old April 30 2014, 02:25 AM   #155
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
What happened to Orci wanting to start a new Trek show? If he were ever to start directing Trek, that probably would have been the most obvious route to go as opposed to a multi-million dollar tentpole film.
Any new Trek show would fall under the aegis of CBS, the owner of Trek on television. Though Orci is supposed to have met with them last October to discuss the prospect, it apparently went nowhere; CBS continues to be uninterested in having a new Trek show anytime soon.


On another note, and as a general aside to all:

If we must bring up the subject of Orci's conspiracy-theory inclinations, let's make an effort not to wander too far afield with it. For purposes of this thread, please stick with the extent to which a 9/11-Trutherist element may or may not be present in the story told in Star Trek Into Darkness, and let's reserve discussion of the broader aspects of the conspiracy theory and its real-world participants for forums more appropriate to that topic.

.
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Old April 30 2014, 06:19 AM   #156
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Where's the fun in that?
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Old April 30 2014, 06:49 AM   #157
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Fun and fun! What is fun‽
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Old April 30 2014, 03:23 PM   #158
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Fun is a pretty flower, that smells baaad.
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Old April 30 2014, 05:34 PM   #159
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Abrams, Lindelof, Kurtzman, Orci, they're all guilty as far as I'm concerned.
They're guilty of making the first Trek movies in a decade that weren't boring-ass wankfests.
I want Star Trek 3 to be all about staff meetings and updates of the Prime Directive, followed by a short presentation on the rapid proliferation of space herpes throughout the Alpha Quadrant.
^^^
So, you want to advance to the TNG timeframe, eh?
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Old May 1 2014, 06:33 AM   #160
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Am I off base by saying that I'm just not a big fan of this guy's work in general? Many of the reviews for the recent Spider-Man flick say the plot's pretty much a mess. This is the same guy who scripted Legend of Zorro, Cowboys and Aliens, and Transformers 1 and 2. And yet he wants now to take more control of Trek. I don't know why this guy gets such a free pass in this industry.
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Old May 1 2014, 01:11 PM   #161
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Agenda wrote: View Post
I don't know why this guy gets such a free pass in this industry.
Because his movies are hugely popular and have made hundreds of millions of dollars.

That's the way it works. As far as the people whose money is on the line are concerned, that's the way it ought to work.
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Old May 1 2014, 01:15 PM   #162
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Sindatur wrote: View Post
I don't understand this 9/11 Truther parable accusation?
If anything the film maps to historical reality rather than conspiracy theory: Marcus ( Bush ) capitalizes on Khan's ( Bin Laden's ) terrorism in order to further his agenda of a war against the Klingons ( Iraq ).
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Old May 1 2014, 01:34 PM   #163
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Agenda wrote: View Post
Am I off base by saying that I'm just not a big fan of this guy's work in general? Many of the reviews for the recent Spider-Man flick say the plot's pretty much a mess. This is the same guy who scripted Legend of Zorro, Cowboys and Aliens, and Transformers 1 and 2. And yet he wants now to take more control of Trek. I don't know why this guy gets such a free pass in this industry.
The thing is, writers in feature films are not free agents; they're usually just doing what the directors instruct them to do. The onscreen writing credits on a feature film are usually just the tip of the iceberg; a script credited to one or two writers is more likely to be a Frankensteinian hodgepodge of scenes from drafts by half a dozen or more different writers, most of them uncredited. (And sometimes most of the work is done by an uncredited writer. Speed is credited solely to Graham Yost, because the basic story structure came from his script, but in fact almost every line of dialogue in the film was written by Joss Whedon.) The reason so many feature-film scripts are so messy and incoherent is because writers have exactly zero power to protect their ideas unless they're also producing or directing, because it's the producers and directors who have the real power.

For example, if you look at the original film Buffy the Vampire Slayer, written by Joss Whedon but directed by Fran Rubel Kuzui, it's a complete mess, because the director and cast (notably Donald Sutherland) were free to hack Whedon's script to bits and twist it in directions he never intended. It wasn't until Whedon turned BTVS into a television series, with himself as executive producer, that he was able to portray the character and her world the way he wanted and create something good. But now that Whedon is actually directing the films he writes, he has the power to protect his words and his vision.

Of the films you mention above, the only ones that Orci and Kurtzman produced, rather than simply writing, were Cowboys and Aliens and Spidey 2. On the others, they were only writing, and that means they were hired to execute the directors' vision, period. For instance, on Transformers 2, it was Michael Bay who constructed the "story" of that film (during the writers' strike) by deciding what action set pieces he wanted to build the film around, and Kurtzman & Orci were brought in after the strike simply to create connective plot tissue to tie those action sequences together. And then an entirely different writer, Ehren Kruger, was brought in to rewrite that script and add the "humor" (including the disturbing racial-stereotype characters). So Orci & Kurtzman had limited input into that script and absolutely no control over how it turned out.

From what I've seen of the process behind the past two Trek films, I think that Orci & Kurtzman's ideas have been undermined somewhat by the changes imposed by others like Abrams and Lindelof. I'd like to see what the result would be if they were actually able to control the process and get their own (relatively) unfiltered vision on the screen. Although, of course, Orci and Kurtzman are now going their separate ways where their film careers are concerned, so I guess it wouldn't be "their" work anymore.
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Old May 1 2014, 06:07 PM   #164
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Christopher wrote: View Post
From what I've seen of the process behind the past two Trek films, I think that Orci & Kurtzman's ideas have been undermined somewhat by the changes imposed by others like Abrams and Lindelof. I'd like to see what the result would be if they were actually able to control the process and get their own (relatively) unfiltered vision on the screen.
ST'09 was filmed during the writer's strike, so they weren't allowed to make writing changes on the fly for that one.
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Old May 1 2014, 06:23 PM   #165
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Agenda wrote: View Post
Am I off base by saying that I'm just not a big fan of this guy's work in general? Many of the reviews for the recent Spider-Man flick say the plot's pretty much a mess. This is the same guy who scripted Legend of Zorro, Cowboys and Aliens, and Transformers 1 and 2. And yet he wants now to take more control of Trek. I don't know why this guy gets such a free pass in this industry.
And then there's THE ISLAND, which got in a lot of trouble for plagiarizing. Beyond that, they just don't seem to have much of a good track record, even when they started producing the films they wrote and had more control over.

Dennis wrote: View Post
Agenda wrote: View Post
I don't know why this guy gets such a free pass in this industry.
Because his movies are hugely popular and have made hundreds of millions of dollars.

That's the way it works.
Yup. A lot of junk gets rewarded as the box office and those people get more work to make more junk. Sad but true.
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