RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,591
Posts: 5,404,058
Members: 24,867
Currently online: 543
Newest member: jack@gerryander

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Gold Key Archives Vol. 2 Comic
By: T'Bonz on Oct 1

Cumberbatch In War Of Roses Miniseries
By: T'Bonz on Oct 1

Trek 3 Filming Location Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Oct 1

October-November 2014 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Cho Selfie TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

TPTB To Shatner: Shhh!
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Mystery Mini Vinyl Figure Display Box
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

The Red Shirt Diaries Episode Five
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

Shatner In Trek 3? Well Maybe
By: T'Bonz on Sep 28

Retro Review: Shadows and Symbols
By: Michelle on Sep 27


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science and Technology

Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 24 2014, 04:19 PM   #31
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

Yminale wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
Societies needs are exponential: While humanity is likely to level off in population at around the 10-11 billion mark (see Hans Rosling's UN data analysis)
human society doesn't necessarily need to be exponential. A policy of depopulation could allow human society to reach 500 million easily. We already seeing this in Europe, Japan and even China.

Survival: Spreading out the human race to survive very real, statistically probable catastrophes has been recommended by the most intelligent people on the planet.
The improvement to survival will be marginal until the development of interplanetary travel.

Philosophical level. Humanity exists in it's surroundings of space, evolved on a single planet but part of a universe that shares all of it's elements and mechanisms. The idea that we will not travel in space when our technological level allows it, seems incredibly narrow and near-sighted. We have always expanded and will continue to do so. The solar system allows for us to be there.
There is already a precedent for decreased exploration, the Earth's oceans. We know more about the moon than our oceans and humanity doesn't seem to have a huge huge urge to explore.


Far future: If the Singularity happens, or anything similar to it
If HAL wants to explore space, let him. His concerns have no bearing on us.
Sorry, but humanity already is, doesn't matter if you think it doesn't have to be. The economic numbers from the UN also refer to the point I made. The teething problems with industrializing developing countries like China (in which over 100 million people have been brought out of poverty in recent history) also demonstrate it...they are skipping generations of technologies in some cases and not learning from the process, hence incredible air pollution. The information is out there, so hopefully they fix the problem as well.

It is obvious if you energetically direct a depopulation program you could undo what is happening, but humans naturally are developing this way. I don't see a directed depopulation program anymore do you??

Marginal survival is better than none. It will also have to be planned. There are also multiple ways to do it, and the tech may be there in 20-30 years to do something more comprehensive.

Human beings are more frightened by natural competition than the hazards of space in my opinion. I think we feel we can conquer the elements in space but are not comfortable in the sea with it's already huge panoply of life. It's psychological in my opinion. I also think a lot of people believe we already "know" the ocean, partly because satellite imagery has shown us the depths of it.

A Singularity can also encompass human derived artificial intelligence. Obviously you haven't been paying attention.

RAMA
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 04:34 PM   #32
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

Any suggestions on how to get the human population down to 500 million? Should we use mass sterilizations or an engineered virus? What about populations that refuse to comply and somehow combat our best efforts at exterminating them with the chemical or biological methods?

And while we're at it, shouldn't we take this as an opportunity to further improve mankind's genetics by picking the survivors from the brightest and healthiest 5 percent of the current population, ones with no criminal record, no trace of resistance to authority, and no heritable genetic problems?
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 04:40 PM   #33
Jedi_Master
Commodore
 
Jedi_Master's Avatar
 
Location: Why do you care?
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

gturner wrote: View Post
Any suggestions on how to get the human population down to 500 million? Should we use mass sterilizations or an engineered virus? What about populations that refuse to comply and somehow combat our best efforts at exterminating them with the chemical or biological methods?

And while we're at it, shouldn't we take this as an opportunity to further improve mankind's genetics by picking the survivors from the brightest and healthiest 5 percent of the current population, ones with no criminal record, no trace of resistance to authority, and no heritable genetic problems?
Seems legit.

I do think humans ought to try to get a handle on running THIS planet before trying to go run some other ones. Exploration is fine, and beneficial, but colonization is not the best use of resources when people are still starving to death.
Jedi_Master is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 04:46 PM   #34
Yminale
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Democratically Liberated America
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

gturner wrote: View Post
Any suggestions on how to get the human population down to 500 million?
It's as simple as providing reliable birth control with increased education and economic opportunities to women in the third world.
__________________
This Space for Rent
Yminale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 04:59 PM   #35
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

How is starving to death a problem instead of the goal? I hadn't thought of reducing the human population by wiping out important crops with plant vectors, but I'm open to the idea. Of course I'm not in charge of setting policy, but I always like to think of clever ways of implementing it. The current White House science advisor once pushed for putting some kind of chemical surreptitiously onto the money or government checks to cause mass sterility in the US population, to keep our numbers down, but obviously our primary goal should be wiping out other country's populations first, because if we wipe out ourselves at the start, who would be left to ensure that everybody else dies too, especially those troublesome Africans where mail service is horribly slow and inefficient?

Perhaps the best long-term solution to the problem is to let the 1 percent move to their space colonies, taking with them carefully screened and selected plant and animal species (with very few insects and no parasites), and then have them completely exterminate almost all life on Earth by blocking out the sun until a total freeze happens, then thawing and reseeding the planet with only the organisms we like.

If we fail to do that, any colony we establish or alien planet we terraform would forever be subject to the threat of a disease, parasite, plague, or destructive insect arriving from Earth, where there are four billion years of badness evolved to exploit weaknesses in our genes and immune systems. A veritable Pandora's box of evils lurks on this planet, and it makes little sense to exterminate the current human population while leaving almost all of those evils intact.

Or we could let SpaceX, Blue Origin, Xcor, and other companies just go about their business, develop space, and not kill anyone or anything. Hrm... Commit mass genocide using all the tools of science, or just let folks fly off to space and do whatever suits their fancy? How to choose, how to choose...
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 05:00 PM   #36
Yminale
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Democratically Liberated America
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

RAMA wrote: View Post
It is obvious if you energetically direct a depopulation program you could undo what is happening, but humans naturally are developing this way. I don't see a directed depopulation program anymore do you??
UN population figures have always been wrong. Europe and Japan are depopulating. Many countries have birth rates under the replacement rate. The largest birth rates occur in Sub-Saharan Africa which sadly will be dealt with by global climate change. We are already moving in that direction. We just need to remove the few remaining obstacles (like the Catholic Church and right wing conservative Christians).

Marginal survival is better than none.
Not if you factor in the cost. We deal with this in medicine all the time. If I increased your chance of survival by 1% but it cost you 1 million dollars would you do it.

A Singularity can also encompass human derived artificial intelligence. Obviously you haven't been paying attention.
HAL is a human derived AI. If you are talking about transcendence/uploading the human mind than no offense but you are talking fantasy that may never occur. Your argument is no better than saying we should explore space because the magic space ponies tell us to.
__________________
This Space for Rent
Yminale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 05:07 PM   #37
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

Yminale wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
Any suggestions on how to get the human population down to 500 million?
It's as simple as providing reliable birth control with increased education and economic opportunities to women in the third world.
Why would they care about increased economic opportunities if they can't have kids? I'm sure there's a simple solution to that, and I do rather like the idea of making the system voluntary, at least at first.

Of course the right-wing and various fundamentalists won't go for the policy, so the initial cohort leaving the gene pool will all be good progressives and the poor people who are desperate enough to fall for food in return for "reliable" birth control. Then, once those are too old to breed and finally die off, the rest of us will sit back on the beach and listen to Rush Limbaugh telling us what a true work of genius the policy was.
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 05:11 PM   #38
Yminale
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Democratically Liberated America
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

gturner wrote: View Post
Why would they care about increased economic opportunities if they can't have kids?
You misunderstand, women who have more economic opportunities have LESS kids not NONE. The replacement rate is 2.1 children per couple but western countries have somewhere between 1.4 to 1.7 children per couple. Have a birth rate less than 2.1 and your population begins to shrink.
__________________
This Space for Rent
Yminale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 05:13 PM   #39
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

Yminale wrote: View Post
UN population figures have always been wrong. Europe and Japan are depopulating. Many countries have birth rates under the replacement rate. The largest birth rates occur in Sub-Saharan Africa which sadly will be dealt with by global climate change. We are already moving in that direction. We just need to remove the few remaining obstacles (like the Catholic Church and right wing conservative Christians).
Don't forget to remove the biggest obstacle first, those evil Jews who survived the last socialist attempt at making this a better planet through genocide.

And global climate change won't affect Sub Saharan Africa at all, except perhaps to make it a bit more lush through increased rainfall. The population of Africa already hugs the equator, where all the heat is, because life loves being warm and wet.
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 05:24 PM   #40
Yminale
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Democratically Liberated America
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

[QUOTE=gturner;9508255]
Yminale wrote: View Post
Don't forget to remove the biggest obstacle first, those evil Jews who survived the last socialist attempt at making this a better planet through genocide.
Genocide? I'm talking about political resistance to access to birth control (ironically Catholic countries birth rates are declining).

And global climate change won't affect Sub Saharan Africa at all,
Unless these people to learn to eat sand, it will affect them. Desertification is spreading and will be made worse by global climate change. Droughts and famines will be made worse by decreases in rain fall and tropical diseases will spread north.
__________________
This Space for Rent
Yminale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 05:29 PM   #41
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

Um, no. The Sahara is shrinking. Increased CO2 means that plants lose less water through transpiration, allowing them to move into areas formerly too dry for them. Global warming also increases rainfall. For example, El Nino produces floods, and la Nina produces droughts. Past temperatures are sometimes estimated by using rainfall as proxy. The planet's largest and driest desert is in Antarctica, not Africa.
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 05:56 PM   #42
Yminale
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Democratically Liberated America
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

gturner wrote: View Post
Um, no. The Sahara is shrinking.
Uhm yes. Every resource I looked up states that Sahara is expanding.
__________________
This Space for Rent
Yminale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 06:18 PM   #43
B.J.
Rear Admiral
 
B.J.'s Avatar
 
Location: Huntsville, AL, USA
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
From Apollo 11 - 17, what was the total hours on the Moon? A day and a half, maybe?
~12.5 days total, but who's counting?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
That whole romance with the idea humans need to go to space to survive... Sigh. Earth is, and will always be, the most human-friendly planet in our reach. Mars, and any other planet in our proximity, is DEAD. You have to live in airtight bunkers, go out in spacesuits. Even if our planet was hit by a catastrophe like a supervolcano, Earth would still be a friendlier environment than that. If you can build autark colonies on Mars and Venus, you can build autark colonies on a catastrophy Earth.
Then that talk about terraforming. We can't even purposely terraform our own planet.
In the near term, geologically speaking, yes, Earth is the best place for us. But in the extreme long term, the sun and Earth will eventually die. Then what? Personally, I hope the human race survives that long and has found a way to live beyond the Solar System, rather than just die with it.
__________________
B.J. --- bj-o23.deviantart.com
B.J. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 06:35 PM   #44
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

gturner wrote: View Post
Any suggestions on how to get the human population down to 500 million? Should we use mass sterilizations or an engineered virus? What about populations that refuse to comply and somehow combat our best efforts at exterminating them with the chemical or biological methods?

And while we're at it, shouldn't we take this as an opportunity to further improve mankind's genetics by picking the survivors from the brightest and healthiest 5 percent of the current population, ones with no criminal record, no trace of resistance to authority, and no heritable genetic problems?
One of the single greatest unpopular ideas in human history is any kind reproduction law, especially limitations. Even in China, the restrictions on child bearing were finally lifted after being so unpopular.

I share in your sarcasm.

RAMA
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2014, 06:43 PM   #45
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: NASA chief touts deep space exploration: We can only survive if we

[QUOTE=Yminale;9508327]
gturner wrote: View Post
Yminale wrote: View Post
Don't forget to remove the biggest obstacle first, those evil Jews who survived the last socialist attempt at making this a better planet through genocide.
Genocide? I'm talking about political resistance to access to birth control (ironically Catholic countries birth rates are declining).

And global climate change won't affect Sub Saharan Africa at all,
Unless these people to learn to eat sand, it will affect them. Desertification is spreading and will be made worse by global climate change. Droughts and famines will be made worse by decreases in rain fall and tropical diseases will spread north.
Birth rates have more to do with economic status. Right now, despite the ideas to the contrary, the Earth is experiencing millions of people coming out of official poverty. People in countries that reach a better state of equilibrium supporting themselves have reduced childbirth rates.

Also, population control will take care of itself. The footprint of these people on the environment and resources is what i was talking about earlier.

http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_roslin...ons_and_babies
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:23 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.