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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 22 2014, 08:39 AM   #16
C.E. Evans
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

Lance wrote: View Post
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I never had a problem with the mixing in of the DS9/VOY uniforms with the TNG uniforms in Generations, but then I felt that they were originally a casual variant that could be worn (or not worn) at the discretion of a commanding officer. I'm also inclined to think that the Enterprise-D was in some sort of transition at the time (perhaps finally getting ready for a 10+ year exploration mission) and there was a lot of work going on all over the ship by the crew.
My problem isn't so much that there are different uniforms, more that the DS9 uniforms still constitute such a sudden visual shift after seven seasons of the TNG crew only ever being seen in the TNG uniform. It's at least as much of a hard change to swallow as if they'd used the abandoned uniforms (indeed, it's arguably a bigger change, as at least the abandoned uniforms use the TNG template design as their hook).
To me, it's just a case of a new or variant uniform being introduced. I think the much bigger visual shifts were in TMP and TWOK.
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Old April 22 2014, 11:06 AM   #17
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

Botany Bay wrote: View Post
The TNG Season 3 - 7 uniforms were the best looking in modern Trek IMO, and look great on the big screen. The DS9 and FC ones...not so good.
Funny, for me the DS9/FC uniforms were the best, together with the Enterprise uniforms. The rest looked either to much like pyjamas or were to overdone.
TWOK uniforms looked great, but felt more like dressuniforms. Not something you'd were on a daily basis and do a lot of work in. To restraining.
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Old April 22 2014, 01:21 PM   #18
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
My problem isn't so much that there are different uniforms, more that the DS9 uniforms still constitute such a sudden visual shift after seven seasons of the TNG crew only ever being seen in the TNG uniform. It's at least as much of a hard change to swallow as if they'd used the abandoned uniforms (indeed, it's arguably a bigger change, as at least the abandoned uniforms use the TNG template design as their hook).
The whole reason why the alternative uniforms and new combadges (which were used) were created in the first place was because they were supposed to be the new duty uniforms for Star Trek: Voyager. Hence, the new uniforms were most likely going to be worn from the very start of the film, just like the FC uniforms were, and they probably made a ton of them. When the decision was made to scrap the uniforms and go with the DS9 ones, what probably happened was that they simply didn't have enough of them for every single crew member on the Enterprise; hence the mishmash of TNG and DS9 uniforms. Sure, as stated before, there can definitely be multiple uniform variations in use at the same time, but as Lance said, the way it was presented in the film was a bit awkward.
S3 TNG still had many crewmembers wearing the S1 collar-less uniforms. Maybe S4 too. Probably for the same reason, not having enough of the new ones for everybody.
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Old April 22 2014, 05:10 PM   #19
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

Some uniform variation and transition aboard might even be considered more realistic than otherwise, compared to real world experience. Consider this 2012 photo from the aircraft carrier John C. Stennis:

http://stennis74.files.wordpress.com...-zb122-078.jpg

In addition to the color-coded flight deck clothing, you can see wash khakis, blue coveralls, the new blue/gray working camo, tan and green flight suits, and even some woodland camo. That was in the transition period when the blue coverall was being replaced by the "blueberry" camo, which is now being replaced in turn by fire-resistant blue coveralls that look different from the old ones.
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Old April 23 2014, 05:59 AM   #20
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
To me, it's just a case of a new or variant uniform being introduced. I think the much bigger visual shifts were in TMP and TWOK.
See, for me it would be for me much easier to accept the visual shift if we'd seen it happen over the seventh season of TNG, starting out with the old uniforms and gradually phasing in the new ones (DS9 jumpsuit or otherwise) until eventually everybody is just wearing the new uniform by "All Good Things". Much like how they transitioned from the S1/S2 uniforms to the S3-S7 uniforms gradually, with a mixture of both being seen on-screen for a while, and then eventually everybody's just wearing the new one. What makes the DS9 jumpsuit such a massive visual jump in the movie is that it just... happens. And while the 'uniform transition theory' is almost kinda acceptable, coupled with the changes to the sets and all of that, it just feels (as Dukhat already said earlier in the thread) somewhat awkward in the way that it just happens, if you go directly from watching the seven seasons to watching the movie.

It's ends up feeling like someone splashing you with cold water, so sudden does the change seem to happen as it is presented on-screen. Which, again, is exactly the reason that the producers gave for abandoning the unused uniforms in the first place: they said that the visual change was "Too much, Too soon". But the DS9 jumpsuits are ALSO too much too soon! That's why it doesn't make sense.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
The whole reason why the alternative uniforms and new combadges (which were used) were created in the first place was because they were supposed to be the new duty uniforms for Star Trek: Voyager. Hence, the new uniforms were most likely going to be worn from the very start of the film, just like the FC uniforms were, and they probably made a ton of them. When the decision was made to scrap the uniforms and go with the DS9 ones, what probably happened was that they simply didn't have enough of them for every single crew member on the Enterprise; hence the mishmash of TNG and DS9 uniforms.
I've always wondered if maybe their apparent intended use for Voyager was a part of the decision to drop them? Maybe the powers that be realized there was something impractical about them, in a sense of them being harder to tailor or being too hot to film in or something, and they made a snap judgement that they didn't want the headaches of being locked into 7 seasons of using them on TV.
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Old April 23 2014, 11:14 AM   #21
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

What really kills these uniforms is the impression they give of pants pulled up way too high, like a cliche pensioner. The same thing plus bagginess made the "All Good Things" future uniforms look terrible too.

I have a Beverly figure in this uniform, which I picked up in a comic book and collectables store on Long Island last month for $8.

I'm surprised that these unis, if made for the entire cast, never cropped up again in one of Trek's alternate timeline episodes. Bad as they look, it could have lent credibility in such a circumstance.
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Old April 23 2014, 01:30 PM   #22
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

Lance wrote: View Post
What makes the DS9 jumpsuit such a massive visual jump in the movie is that it just... happens. And while the 'uniform transition theory' is almost kinda acceptable, coupled with the changes to the sets and all of that, it just feels (as Dukhat already said earlier in the thread) somewhat awkward in the way that it just happens, if you go directly from watching the seven seasons to watching the movie.
Really a TNG-era uniform transition should be pretty rapid, with little overlap of new and old. Starfleet could just transmit the updated specs and the replicators spit out new uniforms as the crew turns in their laundry.
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Old April 23 2014, 02:59 PM   #23
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
What makes the DS9 jumpsuit such a massive visual jump in the movie is that it just... happens. And while the 'uniform transition theory' is almost kinda acceptable, coupled with the changes to the sets and all of that, it just feels (as Dukhat already said earlier in the thread) somewhat awkward in the way that it just happens, if you go directly from watching the seven seasons to watching the movie.
Really a TNG-era uniform transition should be pretty rapid, with little overlap of new and old. Starfleet could just transmit the updated specs and the replicators spit out new uniforms as the crew turns in their laundry.
the problem with the transition theory is that in season 4 of DS9 the TNG uniforms were still being used on Earth, so seeing as thats where Starfleet Command is wouldn't they have been the first people to switch to the new uniroms not the last.

Plus I can't really buy a 4 year transition period when as pointed out above they can just put the new pattern in the replicator and call it a day.
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Old April 23 2014, 05:33 PM   #24
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

Botany Bay wrote: View Post
The TNG Season 3 - 7 uniforms were the best looking in modern Trek IMO, and look great on the big screen. The DS9 and FC ones...not so good.
It's funny, I used to think the TNG Season 3-7 were much better looking than the Season 1-2 ones, but now I think they have that frumpy, fake shoulderpadded, late 80s/early 90s look, and the Season 1-2 ones seem kind of sleek and futuristic.

I'm glad Frakes and Dorn were glad for the change, the old ones would have forced them to stay in better shape.
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Old April 23 2014, 08:34 PM   #25
C.E. Evans
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

Lance wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
To me, it's just a case of a new or variant uniform being introduced. I think the much bigger visual shifts were in TMP and TWOK.
See, for me it would be for me much easier to accept the visual shift if we'd seen it happen over the seventh season of TNG, starting out with the old uniforms and gradually phasing in the new ones (DS9 jumpsuit or otherwise) until eventually everybody is just wearing the new uniform by "All Good Things". Much like how they transitioned from the S1/S2 uniforms to the S3-S7 uniforms gradually, with a mixture of both being seen on-screen for a while, and then eventually everybody's just wearing the new one. What makes the DS9 jumpsuit such a massive visual jump in the movie is that it just... happens. And while the 'uniform transition theory' is almost kinda acceptable, coupled with the changes to the sets and all of that, it just feels (as Dukhat already said earlier in the thread) somewhat awkward in the way that it just happens, if you go directly from watching the seven seasons to watching the movie.

It's ends up feeling like someone splashing you with cold water, so sudden does the change seem to happen as it is presented on-screen. Which, again, is exactly the reason that the producers gave for abandoning the unused uniforms in the first place: they said that the visual change was "Too much, Too soon". But the DS9 jumpsuits are ALSO too much too soon! That's why it doesn't make sense.
I really didn't feel any of that at all (it didn't seem like a radical or awkward change to me). If anything, it seemed more gradual and natural of a change as there still were crewmembers wearing the TNG uniforms too. As such, the DS9 uniforms came across just like newly-issued fatigues to me.
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Old April 23 2014, 09:10 PM   #26
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

I always wondered how the uniforms would have changed if these ones had stuck around and/or been considered popular. It probably would have continued in the subsequent TNG movies, and been used on Voyager, while DS9 maintained their earlier jumpsuits. They would have thus been used in the "Homefront / Paradise Lost" two parter that saw Sisko transfered to Earth for a while, and we'd have had Avery Brooks in one of them... But then the more rough & tumble look of the older uniforms would have looked somewhat out of place when the Dominion War started up IMO...

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Old April 24 2014, 02:51 AM   #27
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

Personally, I like the concept of different unis for different types of assignment. It feels good because one would expect the crew on more "front line" assignments to wear something more formal, like the TNG uniform or even these abandoned ones, while the jumpsuit works for DS9 because it's an out-of-the-way assignment so a casual uniform variant makes sense (at least that's how it was conceived in the first few seasons).

I was never keen on how First Contact "unified" the Starfleet look across everything, into that dull gray dirge. Nor did I honestly feel the Voyager crew should've been in DS9 unis from the beginning (I might understand Janeway relaxing the regulations and allowing the casual variant once they realize they're not getting home anytime soon, but I'd have expected more of them to be wearing a TNG style in the pilot episode at least -- unless the fact that the Badlands/Maquis assignment is as far from the center of action of DS9 is, hence Voyager being docked there in "Caretaker", in which case it makes sense?).
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Old April 24 2014, 04:37 AM   #28
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

Lance wrote: View Post
I've always wondered if maybe their apparent intended use for Voyager was a part of the decision to drop them? Maybe the powers that be realized there was something impractical about them, in a sense of them being harder to tailor or being too hot to film in or something, and they made a snap judgement that they didn't want the headaches of being locked into 7 seasons of using them on TV.
My guess is that they simply thought the new uniforms didn't look good. See next.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
What really kills these uniforms is the impression they give of pants pulled up way too high, like a cliche pensioner. The same thing plus bagginess made the "All Good Things" future uniforms look terrible too.
You hit the nail on the head. It was as if these uniforms (and the AGT future uniforms as well) were designed by an 80 year old man who thought the "pants hiked up to your armpits" look was actually stylish.

Lance wrote: View Post
Nor did I honestly feel the Voyager crew should've been in DS9 unis from the beginning (I might understand Janeway relaxing the regulations and allowing the casual variant once they realize they're not getting home anytime soon, but I'd have expected more of them to be wearing a TNG style in the pilot episode at least -- unless the fact that the Badlands/Maquis assignment is as far from the center of action of DS9 is, hence Voyager being docked there in "Caretaker", in which case it makes sense?).
Honestly, the crew of Voyager should have ditched wearing the uniforms completely. They should have gotten as far away from "Starfleet" as they could have, and made the living situation on the ship much more casual and civilian, seeing as how they may have had to be a generation ship.
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Old April 24 2014, 10:04 AM   #29
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
Nor did I honestly feel the Voyager crew should've been in DS9 unis from the beginning (I might understand Janeway relaxing the regulations and allowing the casual variant once they realize they're not getting home anytime soon, but I'd have expected more of them to be wearing a TNG style in the pilot episode at least -- unless the fact that the Badlands/Maquis assignment is as far from the center of action of DS9 is, hence Voyager being docked there in "Caretaker", in which case it makes sense?).
Honestly, the crew of Voyager should have ditched wearing the uniforms completely. They should have gotten as far away from "Starfleet" as they could have, and made the living situation on the ship much more casual and civilian, seeing as how they may have had to be a generation ship.
It was Janeway's call from the start of their trek home that the Voyager's crew would be a Starfleet crew and would uphold themselves to that standard. The use of different rank insignia for some former Maquis members was probably done more to denote provisional authority granted by Janeway more than anything else.
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Old April 24 2014, 10:08 AM   #30
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Re: Original Generations Uniforms

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
It was Janeway's call from the start of their trek home that the Voyager's crew would be a Starfleet crew and would uphold themselves to that standard.
Oh, I know that. My point was that it shouldn't have been that way. That choice made the show no different than TNG.
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