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Old April 18 2014, 09:25 PM   #31
USS Triumphant
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Re: time travel real?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
When people bring up grandfather paradoxes as an argument against time travel, I wonder why that needs to be the case. Just because the human mind runs into a logical paradox, does that have to be the case in nature?
Since the human mind evolved due to the conditions of nature, and therefore the rules of nature are embedded firmware, so to speak, then there may be rare exceptions, but mostly, "yes".
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Old April 18 2014, 09:55 PM   #32
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Re: time travel real?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
When people bring up grandfather paradoxes as an argument against time travel, I wonder why that needs to be the case. Just because the human mind runs into a logical paradox, does that have to be the case in nature?
You can throw out causality if you wish, but then you have to throw out all of science with it. That's why time travel stories that invoke paradoxes are pure fantasy. I explain some of the cop-outs in another thread.

Sorry, ebusinesstutor, but I stomp on PASTWATCH as an example of a bad time travel story. You might want to try James P. Hogan's THE PROTEUS OPERATION. It is very finely detailed, has an excellent cast of characters, and lots of wild sci-fi ideas. And no paradoxes.

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Old April 18 2014, 10:20 PM   #33
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Re: time travel real?

I like BttF, it also is the only story that I know of that shows the origin of a time travel loop. Marty starts out in the "Two Pine Mall" universe, creates the "Lone Pine Mall" universe and ever since then, all Marty McFlys start out at Lone Pine Mall and find themselves in a predestined loop where everything happens the same way, always. It's only our Marty that comes from a non-predestined timeline.
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Old April 18 2014, 10:41 PM   #34
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Re: time travel real?

Sorry, Jarod. The BACK TO THE FUTURE movies are riddled with problems, too, although they are a lot of fun.

By logic we can assume there are two basic universe types. (There may be more that I haven't thought of.) The "single history" universe is the grandfather paradox type. That means one cannot erase the causes of events. For example, if you go back in time to fix some problem, you will eliminate the reason for your having time traveled. See my above post for some of the fallacies used to side-step this.

The other model is the "multi-verse" type, where every possible juncture spawns another universe. If something can happen in two possible ways, it happens both ways, but we are aware of only one.

The first BTTF assumes the "single history" model, then proceeds to violate it several ways. Also, why would it take a whole week for Marty to start vanishing? This assumes time is nested within another time dimension. Despite keeping his parents together, Marty has invoked paradoxes: Lone Pine Mall, remembering that his parents told him a story about grand-dad hitting George with the car, etc. The only way to save the first movie is to assume a multi-verse, but then nothing Marty or any of his analogs could do would result in one of them vanishing. Anyone "changing" time would simply spawn another universe.

In BTTF2 Doc explains alternate timelines, then violates it. Jennifer passes out and is left on a porch in an alternate 1985. As Marty and Doc prepare to jump, Marty asks, "What about Jennifer?" Doc assures him that she will be fine when time is corrected around her... In reality, Doc just abandoned Jennifer from one universe in an alternate universe that they will never return to.

I could go on, but you get the idea. "Paradoxes" are fine in fantasy stories, however. Then they become wishful thinking on how some event might have been, if only... I've heard some people call GROUNDHOG DAY a time travel movie, but it is more of a karma story. So a deity is involved and no business of "science" fiction.
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Old April 18 2014, 10:47 PM   #35
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Re: time travel real?

It's a comforting thought that according to MWI, I recently sold Whatsapp for 19 billion, and I just came back from my honeymoon with Jessica Alba AND Emma Watson, because bigamy is not allowed, it's common practice, AND my fridge is full. And GTA V was released for PC and PS4.
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Old April 19 2014, 12:57 AM   #36
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Re: time travel real?

^ Now that sounds like Laumer's DINOSAUR BEACH, if I'm remembering the correct title. It was just a jumble of weird junk with no rhyme or reason to the identity of the characters—like having Marty McFly's successful, got-get-'em parents still living in the same little Lyon Estates house. The SIMPSONS Halloween story "Time and Punishment" was more coherent.
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Old April 19 2014, 01:34 AM   #37
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Re: time travel real?

But if every possible state at every moment in time spawns a universe, such universes can exist, can't they? There's a universe where Jessica Alba never pursued her acting career, and I didn't pursue my own. So we met at our other workplace. A friend of mine actually got accepted to that study abroad programme, where he met Emma Watson and then introduced me to her. Etc... etc... It's not physics defying, and not violating causality. Certainly there can't be universes with different constants, for example. But if it was ever possible that a random gene mutation turned the skin color of elephants blue, there is a universe with blue elephants.
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Old April 19 2014, 02:16 AM   #38
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Re: time travel real?

Melakon wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Every moment I exist, I travel forward through time.
Everywhere I rest my gaze is a window into the past.
That's damn poetic, J. So much so, that I Googled the lines to see if they were from a poem. Instead, Google pointed back to your post.
Yes, it is from my own mind (distorted and chaotic as it may be), and thank you for the compliment.
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Old April 19 2014, 12:23 PM   #39
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Re: time travel real?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But if every possible state at every moment in time spawns a universe, such universes can exist, can't they?
This whole question of personal identity has come up in every transporter thread, or cloned immortality discussion. Who we are is partly due to our past experiences. So your analogs would not be "you" exactly, unless you're assuming recently spawned alternate universes that differ in only the slightest of ways. In those universes, would Jessica and Emma not be popular actors and also married to you?

Granting your blue elephants and Hollywood wives, time traveling into this alternate world does not mean that your analog will conveniently disappear into some other universe just because you've arrived. So how does any of this ideal fantasy world benefit you? Or do you plan to bump off your analogs?

And now that we've strayed so far into fantasy land, how does any of this explain grandfather paradoxes, or the alleged "time loop" in BTTF? ("Time loops" are another one of those popular misconceptions based on the idea that time "happens again." For the past and future to exist to be traveled to, they must exist in a shape visible only from some higher dimensional standpoint. And that invalidates paradoxes and changing history. The only way around it is the multiverse, but then time doesn't actually change, people don't fade out, and analogs of all of us exist who probably aren't interested in stepping aside to let you claim their turf.)
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Old April 19 2014, 02:45 PM   #40
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Re: time travel real?

Metryq wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But if every possible state at every moment in time spawns a universe, such universes can exist, can't they?
This whole question of personal identity has come up in every transporter thread, or cloned immortality discussion. Who we are is partly due to our past experiences. So your analogs would not be "you" exactly, unless you're assuming recently spawned alternate universes that differ in only the slightest of ways. In those universes, would Jessica and Emma not be popular actors and also married to you?

Granting your blue elephants and Hollywood wives, time traveling into this alternate world does not mean that your analog will conveniently disappear into some other universe just because you've arrived. So how does any of this ideal fantasy world benefit you? Or do you plan to bump off your analogs?

And now that we've strayed so far into fantasy land, how does any of this explain grandfather paradoxes, or the alleged "time loop" in BTTF? ("Time loops" are another one of those popular misconceptions based on the idea that time "happens again." For the past and future to exist to be traveled to, they must exist in a shape visible only from some higher dimensional standpoint. And that invalidates paradoxes and changing history. The only way around it is the multiverse, but then time doesn't actually change, people don't fade out, and analogs of all of us exist who probably aren't interested in stepping aside to let you claim their turf.)
Does each decision point create its own universe? I think so, meaning that each decision creates a stream of causality and could coexist, in different phases, perhaps.
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Old April 19 2014, 02:49 PM   #41
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Re: time travel real?

It's not about decisions or choices. Decisions are cognitive processes, very high level. A new quantum reality is spawned at any moment in time for every possible state a particle can have, so at the lowest level. A gazillion of particles are involved in a decision making process. By the time you made the conscious choice "left" or "right", a gazillion of alternate realities have already been created. It's absolutely not depending on hoo-mans making choices.
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Old April 19 2014, 04:58 PM   #42
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Re: time travel real?

I beg to differ. My sharp quantum mind splits universes like butter. That's why it's so random and rarely makes any sense.
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Old April 19 2014, 09:31 PM   #43
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Re: time travel real?

You want a great time travel story without paradoxes? Try this.
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Old April 27 2014, 09:47 PM   #44
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Re: time travel real?

Any real time travel is going to involve space travel.

Fly really fast, and it is an express trip to the future--but it is one way, unless you take advantage of this: http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw86.html

I have also read about getting two wormhole mouths, accelerating one at NAFAL speeds, then returning--so you have a time machine consisting of two wormholes say, in one room. That is as close to a time machine as you are likely to get, but it would look like two globes, not this: http://www.modelermagic.com/?p=55873

But a wormhole may not be stable to enter at all, much less when "stretched."

The only real hope of time travel into the past may be though the use of cosmological defects: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/conten...me-travel.html

Only they have the moxie to pull it off--and then only if the two cosmic strings came close to one another in the past--a double-fly-by, were I to hazard a guess...

Exploiting this type of time travel would be a major, one time undertaking--making D-Day preparations look small.

More: http://www.hardsf.org/index.htm
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Old May 8 2014, 02:04 AM   #45
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Re: time travel real?

Actually you can time travel based on the words time travel. Time - the measure of energy that a system uses when traveling along a path. Travel - to move along a path based upon the amount of energy needed to complete the traveling from point A to point B.

So basically if you walk along a tape measure that is 30 feet long and remember the localized events in your mind and then walk back to each point you have metaphysically time travelled but in order for real time travel to occur all of the events of each moment on the tape measure would have to revert to that exact same position relative to the point on the tape measure meaning that the entire Universe would have to be in the state that was remembered at each specific point along the tape measure. Which an individual person is not capable of doing because of factors like ants and microbes not even knowing what Time Travel was.
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