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Old April 13 2014, 08:01 PM   #31
T'Girl
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

Jono wrote: View Post
The longer it goes the more pressure for Leyton to return power of course. If he planned it right he could use his coup to get himself elected into the council and catapulted into the presidency.
Or, following the conclusion of the war with the Dominion (the Founder stands down) Leyton could have relinquished his leadership position and submitted himself and his supporters for arrest ... perhaps directly to Sisko, as the two of them stood in front of the Federation Council.

SISKO: ... Admiral Leyton controls Earth. And he's not going to give up that control until he's convinced that he has ended the Dominion threat.

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Old April 13 2014, 08:10 PM   #32
Emperor Norton
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

The two episode story-arc is available fully on Startrek.com.

http://www.startrek.com/watch_episode/_DAXcsyh5gyK
http://www.startrek.com/watch_episode/iPHDqFEbfYrp


T'Girl wrote: View Post
Jono wrote: View Post
The longer it goes the more pressure for Leyton to return power of course. If he planned it right he could use his coup to get himself elected into the council and catapulted into the presidency.
Or, following the conclusion of the war with the Dominion (the Founder stands down) Leyton could have relinquished his leadership position and submitted himself and his supporters for arrest ... perhaps directly to Sisko, as the two of them stood in front of the Federation Council.

SISKO: ... Admiral Leyton controls Earth. And he's not going to give up that control until he's convinced that he has ended the Dominion threat.

Power does corrupt. And you can violate things in the name of said things, and convince yourself what you are doing is good. If Leyton takes power, by whatever means and in whatever shape, I don't think he'd relinquish it. There'd be the Dominion war, and the rebuilding after the Dominion war, and the continued threats of other galactic powers, and the continued threats from the Borg, and the continued threats of rogue Changelings, and the terrorists and rebels that rose up to counter his power, and the list goes on. There's always a boogeyman and the galaxy will not have utopia. And I think Leyton would only give up power in utopia.

Or as Jono said, if need be he could seek to be democratically elected to lead the Federation, but that would only be an effort to gain legitimacy for what will be a dictatorial leadership on his part. I also think it would be directly to the presidency or to a new position of higher authority.
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Old April 14 2014, 12:50 AM   #33
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

I just had a thought: Why did the O'Brien Changeling approach Sisko? It doesn't make sense. Other than to gloat, but by telling Sisko what he did, the Changeling was helping Sisko, and what reason would the Dominion have to help the Federation? Unless maybe they weren't helping, but only wanted it to look like they were. Maybe the Dominion was legitimately more afraid of a military dictatorship Federation than a democratic Federation, and afraid of Leyton and a cabal being in command and launching a preemptive war against them.
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Old April 14 2014, 01:13 AM   #34
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
Or as Jono said, if need be he could seek to be democratically elected to lead the Federation, but that would only be an effort to gain legitimacy for what will be a dictatorial leadership on his part. I also think it would be directly to the presidency or to a new position of higher authority.
He might declare himself emperor after eliminating the Jedi threat...
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Old April 14 2014, 06:28 PM   #35
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
Maybe the Dominion was legitimately more afraid of a military dictatorship Federation than a democratic Federation ...
Layton doing immediately what Starfleet was going to end up doing in a couple of years anyway.

The Dominion wanted more time, Sisko handed it to them.

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Old April 14 2014, 07:16 PM   #36
Anwar
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
Power does corrupt.
Not exactly, it's not so much that power corrupts. It's more that it attracts people who are corruptible or already corrupt into those positions to begin with. Power is a corruption magnet, rather than a corruption causer.
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Old April 14 2014, 10:56 PM   #37
Emperor Norton
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
Or as Jono said, if need be he could seek to be democratically elected to lead the Federation, but that would only be an effort to gain legitimacy for what will be a dictatorial leadership on his part. I also think it would be directly to the presidency or to a new position of higher authority.
He might declare himself emperor after eliminating the Jedi threat...
Fear the fact that Wesley Crusher is the Luke Skywalker of this scenario.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
Maybe the Dominion was legitimately more afraid of a military dictatorship Federation than a democratic Federation ...
Layton doing immediately what Starfleet was going to end up doing in a couple of years anyway.

The Dominion wanted more time, Sisko handed it to them.

It makes things all the more complicated, and creates a moral crisis about democracy and truth. The Federation could have launched first and launched hard, taking measures that would have kept the Changelings at bay, but based on a lie and sacrificing its soul.

Anwar wrote: View Post
Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
Power does corrupt.
Not exactly, it's not so much that power corrupts. It's more that it attracts people who are corruptible or already corrupt into those positions to begin with. Power is a corruption magnet, rather than a corruption causer.
Humans innately fall into despotic patterns when given power over others of an unlimited degree. It's in our nature. Hence democracy, to put that into check where the system consists of the masses and has components of government which keep each other in check.
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Old April 15 2014, 12:49 AM   #38
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

I'm watching "Valiant", and oh my god, Red Squad are a bunch of words I'm not sure I'm allowed to say. Egotistical, self righteous, pompous, playing dress up like adults and feigning everything you'd see an adult do legitimately.
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Old April 15 2014, 05:24 AM   #39
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

There is something else to consider: Gowron may think the Leyton Coup as being lead by changelings, rather than by the fear of them, thus leading the Klingons to attack the Federation.
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Old April 15 2014, 05:33 AM   #40
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
Humans innately fall into despotic patterns when given power over others of an unlimited degree.
Which wouldn't be the case with Layton, because he needed the on-going support of Starfleet's rank and file. So he couldn't have gone all ape-shit despot, or he'd lose control of his power base.

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Old April 15 2014, 08:21 AM   #41
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
Humans innately fall into despotic patterns when given power over others of an unlimited degree.
Which wouldn't be the case with Layton, because he needed the on-going support of Starfleet's rank and file. So he couldn't have gone all ape-shit despot, or he'd lose control of his power base.
Because, of course, the armed forces never commit atrocities or become tyrants and despots when they take power. Ever. The armed forces are morally incorruptible.

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Old April 19 2014, 04:27 AM   #42
Emperor Norton
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

All it takes to maintain power is loyalty and force. There may be some need for a lighter hand early on, but it can get harder as time progresses. Leyton was already moving people into key positions, which indicates he would continue to do so and would make sure the government and military were loyal to the cabal. Anyone else, as that story arc showed, would be discredited or eliminated as necessary. And Leyton would rig elaborate ruses to do so. Imagine, say, a fleet is told they are part of a wargames scenario and all sorts of holographic trickery is rigged up to make them think their adversary fleet is in on it, while the adversary fleet has no idea. So you've just tricked Federation ships into actually firing on their allies, tricking them into being traitors.

And I will say this of Leyton. He may have started out with honest intents and morals, but the lure of power and actually being close to attaining it would corrupt him. It already had.
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Old April 20 2014, 04:32 AM   #43
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

On a related note to what I've come to refer to as the Leytonverse:

One of the things that annoys me about Star Trek is that, as part of the tension, they're constantly setting up jerk aliens and antagonists often with the orb of stupidity in hand. I hate farce, and to paraphrase Buster Keaton the problem with it is that once you stop to talk and think it all falls apart, and that Star Trek narrative is a sort of farce. "You murdered so and so" and it turns out they didn't because obviously Picard or Riker or whoever didn't, but the aliens were stupid and it gets resolved, cue credits.

And on a related note, another thing that does annoy me is that you'll have the antagonists do something horrible or be jerks, and then have some Picard diplomacy treatment towards them and have them be let go or otherwise not properly dealt with. I do recall that happening quite a bit. It didn't happen as much in the TOS days, but the whole "We're better humans" 24th century thing really made it take off.

Something I like about the Mirror Universe and what I've seen of DS9 is there is a no nonsense mentality. It's like Liam Neeson in Taken; they aren't messing around. If you are a problem, you are getting vaporized; moving on. (And in the Mirror universe, everyone's the same type of jerk anyway, so it doesn't matter who does what to whom.)

That is really why I fell in love with Firefly as well, because one of the bad guys gave his whole "I'm gonna hunt you down" speech when he was captured and they were talking about letting him go, so Reynolds kicked him into the engine turbine to his death. In TNG had that same situation happened, Picard would have talked about duty and being better and all that sort of thing, and then there'd be an episode a season later where they came back and killed some people and endangered the crew. That's why it surprised me.

In the Leytonverse, I think it'd be a no nonsense universe. I think Leyton's Starfleet, regardless of if it's evil or not, would be no nonsense like that, and I think whatever rebellion there is would be no nonsense like that. The "easy to be a saint in paradise" rule applies, and the Leyton Starfleet would do it because they'd be more militaristic and it'd be the jerks who won.
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Old April 20 2014, 06:52 AM   #44
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
I just had a thought: Why did the O'Brien Changeling approach Sisko? It doesn't make sense. Other than to gloat, but by telling Sisko what he did, the Changeling was helping Sisko, and what reason would the Dominion have to help the Federation? Unless maybe they weren't helping, but only wanted it to look like they were. Maybe the Dominion was legitimately more afraid of a military dictatorship Federation than a democratic Federation, and afraid of Leyton and a cabal being in command and launching a preemptive war against them.
It makes sense as you point out if they were concerned that Leyton's coup would succeed without any opposition and it would strengthen the Federation and hamper the Dominion's efforts to sow chaos and weaken the region. Also by spurring Sisko to action it sets up a conflict in Starfleet and best case scenario is that Starfleet is fractured and results in an armed conflict or is paralysed trying to sort things out diminishing the Federation's power in the region.
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Old April 20 2014, 05:11 PM   #45
Emperor Norton
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Re: What if Admiral Leyton's Coup Was Successful?

Jono wrote: View Post
Emperor Norton wrote: View Post
I just had a thought: Why did the O'Brien Changeling approach Sisko? It doesn't make sense. Other than to gloat, but by telling Sisko what he did, the Changeling was helping Sisko, and what reason would the Dominion have to help the Federation? Unless maybe they weren't helping, but only wanted it to look like they were. Maybe the Dominion was legitimately more afraid of a military dictatorship Federation than a democratic Federation, and afraid of Leyton and a cabal being in command and launching a preemptive war against them.
It makes sense as you point out if they were concerned that Leyton's coup would succeed without any opposition and it would strengthen the Federation and hamper the Dominion's efforts to sow chaos and weaken the region. Also by spurring Sisko to action it sets up a conflict in Starfleet and best case scenario is that Starfleet is fractured and results in an armed conflict or is paralysed trying to sort things out diminishing the Federation's power in the region.
Add onto which you'd be removing a number of high ranking officers throughout Starfleet; there are the ones we saw and the ones we never saw, and at least a lot of them would be prosecuted. A loss of competent officers would hurt any war effort.
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