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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old October 4 2013, 01:51 PM   #31
Hartzilla2007
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Khan444 wrote: View Post
No, not really. Kirk was ALWAYS a cliché action hero, as well as a womanizer.
An example on the womanizer part please.
Here you go

Courtmartial wrote:
Dr. McCoy: If you have any doubt, that was indeed Captain James Kirk of the Enterprise.
Areel Shaw: Yes, I know. Are you a friend of his?
Dr. McCoy: In these trying times, one of the few. Doctor Leonard McCoy, and you?
Areel Shaw: Areel Shaw, and I'm a friend, too. An old one.
Dr. McCoy: All of my old friends look like doctors; all of his look like you.
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Old October 4 2013, 02:54 PM   #32
grendelsbayne
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

How exactly is Picard being out of character an argument for ID over FC?

ID turns Spock into Kirk (KHAAAAAAN!), turns Kirk into a Captain who makes bizarre decisions for no reason (Hiding on the ocean against Scotty's recommendations when the ship is just as well hidden in space) and turns Khan into a sentimental daddy figure who is easily controlled simply by threatening his followers. Even after he somehow got his hands on those same followers, and, instead of waking them up and taking Section 31's technology to relaunch his plans for world domination, instead decides to just hide them in torpedoes and keep doing Marcus' bidding.

Both films have significant issues. I wouldn't include either one as among the best Trek films, even though they are both reasonably enjoyable. Ultimately, the quality of the writing for both is, to me, equally dubious. ID of course has better special effects - that's a given, being released 17 years later. But the general execution of both films is more or less on the same level. I would give the very slight edge to FC, simply because the extended fakeout of demoting Kirk at the beginning of ID and then reinstating him without any real consequences rather detracts, for me, from the overall coherence of the story.
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Old October 4 2013, 04:41 PM   #33
JarodRussell
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

In my opinion, First Contact achieved with ease what Abrams & Co were always talking about with Trek 2009 and STD.

You didn't need to know anything about Trek to get excited by First Contact. A much faster pace, a completely new visual style, more action, an exciting space battle, that closer-to-earth approach with 21st century characters bouncing against the 24th century characters. And it's LOADED with references to previous Trek without being annoying or contrived. References to DS9, TOS, VOY, previous TNG episodes (like Dixon Hill episodes), Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans, Zephram Cochrane. Holy heck, even Barclay is in it.

First Contact condenses the ENTIRE franchise into one film. First Contact is the very first choice when I want to introduce someone to Trek.


It IS the same as Star Trek 2009 regarding all intentions. But I like the execution of First Contact a lot more.
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Old October 6 2013, 02:20 AM   #34
suarezguy
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

I don't get the complaint that Picard was out of character, let alone enough to ruin the film (although this may be a little bit from watching it before "I, Borg" and finding that a less satisfying TBoBW sequel); encountering the Borg briefly twice (the latter time being Lore's pretty different version) in seven years doesn't seem enough for him to not want vengeance against them, especially when they seem increasingly likely to take over his ship and assimilate all of humanity.

Noname Given wrote: View Post
STiD blows away FC in every aspect. It really does recapture the essence of the Kirk and Spock characters, shows their friendship progressing, and you get the sense they both grew as characters.
How did Spock grow in ID?

anh165 wrote: View Post
The problem with FC is they carried over the same type of actors, executed the same dialog patterns, and the same technobabble driven scripting which was barely excusable in 90's Television and totally crushed by anything else in Hollywood cinema at that time.
The technobabble seemed pretty minimal in FC and the writing overall a lot better than most blockbuster films (including from 1996).
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Old October 6 2013, 02:57 AM   #35
Vasquez Rocks
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

suarezguy wrote: View Post
I don't get the complaint that Picard was out of character, let alone enough to ruin the film (although this may be a little bit from watching it before "I, Borg" and finding that a less satisfying TBoBW sequel); encountering the Borg briefly twice (the latter time being Lore's pretty different version) in seven years doesn't seem enough for him to not want vengeance against them, especially when they seem increasingly likely to take over his ship and assimilate all of humanity.
That are my feelings as well. At the beginning of First Contact the Borg have completely assimilated Earth. The temporal wake let's Picard see this before he goes back in time. The stakes are super high for him. This is probably his worst fears come to life. And would anyone really just be "over" what happened to him. Sure he's dealt with it somewhat in the past, but that doesn't mean it's just gone from him now. The film shows how human he is.

If we really look at those other episodes after BOBW we have one injured Borg with emotions and in Decent we have a splintered group that are chaotic and emotional, doing none of the things they did in the past. First Contact is the first time we have the same Borg from BOBW.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:57 PM   #36
JarodRussell
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

Vasquez Rocks wrote: View Post
suarezguy wrote: View Post
I don't get the complaint that Picard was out of character, let alone enough to ruin the film (although this may be a little bit from watching it before "I, Borg" and finding that a less satisfying TBoBW sequel); encountering the Borg briefly twice (the latter time being Lore's pretty different version) in seven years doesn't seem enough for him to not want vengeance against them, especially when they seem increasingly likely to take over his ship and assimilate all of humanity.
That are my feelings as well. At the beginning of First Contact the Borg have completely assimilated Earth. The temporal wake let's Picard see this before he goes back in time. The stakes are super high for him. This is probably his worst fears come to life. And would anyone really just be "over" what happened to him. Sure he's dealt with it somewhat in the past, but that doesn't mean it's just gone from him now. The film shows how human he is.

If we really look at those other episodes after BOBW we have one injured Borg with emotions and in Decent we have a splintered group that are chaotic and emotional, doing none of the things they did in the past. First Contact is the first time we have the same Borg from BOBW.
Exactly.
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Old October 6 2013, 04:32 PM   #37
Franklin
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

suarezguy wrote: View Post
I don't get the complaint that Picard was out of character, let alone enough to ruin the film (although this may be a little bit from watching it before "I, Borg" and finding that a less satisfying TBoBW sequel); encountering the Borg briefly twice (the latter time being Lore's pretty different version) in seven years doesn't seem enough for him to not want vengeance against them, especially when they seem increasingly likely to take over his ship and assimilate all of humanity.

Noname Given wrote: View Post
STiD blows away FC in every aspect. It really does recapture the essence of the Kirk and Spock characters, shows their friendship progressing, and you get the sense they both grew as characters.
How did Spock grow in ID?
He understands the value and meaning of friendship. His cavalier attitude towards life and death have changed. He admits his choice to be stoic comes more from not wanting to deal with the emotions of losing Vulcan than from simply adhering to the philosophical aspects of being a Vulcan. That's a big personal admission.
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Old April 6 2014, 09:04 PM   #38
Emperor-Tiberius
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

I don't think there's even a comparison. ID is basically a TWOK reworking without the intelligence or wisdom of the original, plus Kirk as an uber-cocky bastard, plus a decent, but half-baked, not to mention undercooked social commentary. Basically terrible. FC is still a great Star Trek film, that also a great film.
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Old April 7 2014, 12:59 AM   #39
sonak
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
I don't think there's even a comparison. ID is basically a TWOK reworking without the intelligence or wisdom of the original, plus Kirk as an uber-cocky bastard, plus a decent, but half-baked, not to mention undercooked social commentary. Basically terrible. FC is still a great Star Trek film, that also a great film.

I don't think that ID is anything like TWOK except for the villain(who's very different personality-wise) and the 5 minute death scene which is deliberate. Otherwise the plots are nothing alike.
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Old April 7 2014, 05:38 PM   #40
F. King Daniel
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

I love both. They're hugely enjoyable.
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Old April 7 2014, 05:39 PM   #41
BillJ
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

I enjoy Into Darkness more. But I've never been much into zombie movies.
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Old April 7 2014, 05:56 PM   #42
JarodRussell
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

BillJ wrote: View Post
I enjoy Into Darkness more. But I've never been much into zombie movies.
nuKirk is a zombie now.
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Old April 7 2014, 10:01 PM   #43
AgentDreidel
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

I didn't enjoy ID nearly as much as I did ST09, but it was still enjoyable. But FC is my favorite Trek film and, in my opinion, it is superior to ID in almost every way.
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Old April 8 2014, 07:18 PM   #44
Galileo7
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I love both. They're hugely enjoyable.
Agree, they are both good.
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Old April 10 2014, 12:44 AM   #45
TV's Frank
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

Using Red Letter Media as some sort of reference point for intelligent, considered film critique is akin to adding wikipedia links to your dissertation's footnotes. It's a bad idea all around. I find RLM puerile, frustrated, antagonistic, petulant, self-indulgent and seemingly unable to understand that all movies are "speculative fiction" and not required to meet his personal subjective tastes and demands.
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