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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old April 4 2014, 11:12 AM   #16
Mario de Monti
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

Mytran wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
I'd say that it's highly improbable that with constant crew rotations, promotions, reassignments, etc., that a ship would have an exact round number of crew at any time.
There'd be a 1/10 chance, surely! Not exactly bad odds.
Thank you !!
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Old April 4 2014, 11:54 AM   #17
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

The commissioning plaque on the TOS bridge says Starship Class.

Does anybody know where the term "Constitution Class" first appeared? I remember Picard said it aloud in "Relics" when he entered Scotty's simulation of the bridge, but that can't be the first usage.
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Old April 4 2014, 02:02 PM   #18
ssosmcin
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
IIRC, every time the crew count of "Kirks" Enterprise was given it was exactly 430 - quite a coincidence, if there is indeed such a fluctuation and variation of crew strength and composition as you suggest.

That being said, Im not insisting that the crew count of 400 is proof that the Intrepid belongs to a class different to the Enterpises, Im just saying its an indication - its still anyones choice to follow that indication or not

Mario
I still don't follow why having a crew of 400 Vulcans is an indication that it is not in the same class as the Enterprise. If we take the numbers Kirk spits out as gospel and that 428 (as per Charlie X where he was bring 'exact") is the standard (requiring replacements of the dead), The Enterprise had a crew of only about 30 more than the Intrepid. Are 30 people really all that much more on a ship that size? Also, Vulcans are smarter than Humans. No doubt there could be job consolidation.

Besides, 428 could just be the count on the Enterprise. Kirk sometimes rounds down to 400 anyway.

Just one example is The Ultimate Computer: "Four starships, sixteen hundred men and women!"

No, since the writers and producers make it a point to tell us a starship crew numbers around 400 repeatedly, using the number for the Intrepid is an indication that it is in the same class as the Enterprise.

Also, as Zap pointed out, the Enterprise was listed on the plaque as being in "starship" class. This was before the 70's reference materials and later spin off series began giving sub classes to starships. Every reference in the series is to "starships," not "Constitution class" or anything else. The Enterprise is one of 12 starships in the fleet and every time we saw a starship, it was of the same design. The Constellation was "by configuration a starship." Yes, there could be many different configurations and Spock would know this, but there's no indication of it. I have to go with what we're given on screen. The four starships in The Ultimate Computer were also the same design. It doesn't matter if the budget wouldn't allow a new design of ships. it's on screen so that's what it is.

Now back to The Immunity Syndrome -

MCCOY: Not even a Vulcan could feel a starship die.

I think I've used up my allowance of the use of the term "starship" in this one post alone...

Going by what we were told and led to believe on the original series, The Intrepid is of the same class as the Enterprise.
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Old April 4 2014, 02:08 PM   #19
Timo
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

Does anybody know where the term "Constitution Class" first appeared?
In theory, the term is part of the graphics seen in ST:TMP monitors (as we know those graphics in detail, thanks to them coming from the Star Fleet Technical Manual), but in practice it cannot be spotted there; it's not visible in the up-close view of such a graphic in ST3:TSfS, either. Early TNG has no references to the class name, so it falls upon ST6:TUC to show a graphic with that name (although it refers to the refitted design). That and "Relics" really are the first canon usages AFAIK.

The designation was apparently invented early on, as it was used in a TOS graphic (that never was visible enough to the audience), but it was not mentioned in any dialogue and wasn't even particularly tightly associated with Kirk's ship.

There'd be a 1/10 chance, surely! Not exactly bad odds.
Thank you !!
That's a 1/100 chance, actually, since what we're talking about here are the odds of 400 (two zeroes) triumphing over 430 (one zero).

Timo Saloniemi

Edit: Actually, TNG "The Naked Now" has Picard say out loud "The Constitution class Enterprise, Captain James T. Kirk commanding" when reading the computer entry pertaining to the "The Naked Time" adventure. Yet the episode features a graphic of the refitted ship there, allowing us to interpret the Constitution class as referring solely to the refit (as it does refer to the refit in ST6) - it's only in TNG-R that a different graphic, closer to the TOS appearance of the ship, is shown there. So nitpickers might say that TNG-R "The Naked Now" came after "Relics" and ST6.

In any case, my mistake.

Last edited by Timo; April 4 2014 at 03:05 PM.
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Old April 4 2014, 02:47 PM   #20
Mountie1988
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

There might have been more, but only 12 remaining after some 20 years of service. Who knows, probably Constitution herself already was lost/decommissioned at that time.
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Old April 4 2014, 03:31 PM   #21
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

The other 30 members of the Intrepid's crew were non-Vulcans.
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Old April 4 2014, 03:35 PM   #22
ssosmcin
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

HAHAH! The easiest answer! Bravo.
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Old April 4 2014, 03:41 PM   #23
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

Mountie1988 wrote: View Post
There might have been more, but only 12 remaining after some 20 years of service. Who knows, probably Constitution herself already was lost/decommissioned at that time.
It's in a box in my garage if not misplaced in the last moving. I'll have to check.
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Old April 4 2014, 04:02 PM   #24
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
So in the episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday", regarding his ship, Kirk tells Christopher that "there are only twelve like it in the United Earth Space Probe Agency". Now we have to take Kirk's comments with a grain of salt since he's trying to deal with a 20th century human, but if he means Federation Constitution class starships, which would they be? Here are the ones shown in TOS and TOS remastered:

1. U.S.S. Enterprise (NCC-1701) ("The Cage" et al.)
2. U.S.S. Constellation (NCC-1017) ("The Doomsday Machine")
3. U.S.S. Intrepid (NCC-1631) ("The Immunity Syndrome")
4. U.S.S. Potemkin (NCC-1657) ("The Ultimate Computer")
5. U.S.S. Excalibur (NCC-1664) ("The Ultimate Computer")
6. U.S.S. Exeter (NCC-1672) ("The Omega Glory")
7. U.S.S. Hood (NCC-1703) ("The Ultimate Computer")
8. U.S.S. Lexington (NCC-1709) ("The Ultimate Computer")
9. U.S.S. Defiant (NCC-1764) ("The Tholian Web")
10.
11.
12.
So which other 3 Constitution class starships do we pick from non-canon works to fill in the gap?
One other thing to consider is that athe only 12 like her in the fleet would only be accurate at the time he made it, some might have been lost (not-mentioned) off screen, new ones been built etc..
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Old April 4 2014, 04:46 PM   #25
T'Girl
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
2. U.S.S. Constellation (NCC-1017) ("The Doomsday Machine")
It's been pointed out on this board before that there are physical differences between the the shooting model used on the show (the one in the Smithsonian) and the AMT model kit used for the Constellation. Differences in dimensions.

Coupled with a radically different NCC number the argument could be made that the Constellation is not the same class ship as the Enterprise.

Kirk almost walked past the auxiliary control room that he was looking for, suggesting that it wasn't in the same place as the ACR on the Enterprise.

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Old April 5 2014, 03:43 AM   #26
Dukhat
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

Mytran wrote: View Post
There'd be a 1/10 chance, surely! Not exactly bad odds.
Where did you get that ratio from?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
It's been pointed out on this board before that there are physical differences between the the shooting model used on the show (the one in the Smithsonian) and the AMT model kit used for the Constellation. Differences in dimensions.

Coupled with a radically different NCC number the argument could be made that the Constellation is not the same class ship as the Enterprise.

Kirk almost walked past the auxiliary control room that he was looking for, suggesting that it wasn't in the same place as the ACR on the Enterprise.
I've heard this argument before, and I think it's nonsense. Yes, there are minute physical differences, but that's because it's a model kit, not because the differences were created to specifically suggest a different class of ship. It was meant to represent whatever type of ship the Enterprise was. As for the registry, it was what it was because the guy who put it on probably didn't give a crap what the numbers read.
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Old April 5 2014, 03:49 AM   #27
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

^ And also because NCC-1710 would have looked too much like 1701. At least on the TV sets of the day.
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Old April 5 2014, 02:28 PM   #28
Timo
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

1) "...not because the differences were created to specifically suggest a different class of ship..."

Apparently true. There was no evident intent to that effect. Or to any other effect, for that matter.

2) "...it was meant to represent whatever type of ship the Enterprise was..."

That's nonsense, too. It was meant to be a starship, is all. It would have cost money to attempt to build a starship that looked different; at the very least, there would have been the risk of having to buy two ATM kits for experimentation.

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Old April 5 2014, 05:19 PM   #29
Mytran
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

Mytran wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
And why is it "highly unlikely" that the Intrepid had a crew of exactly 400? 400 is just as likely as 402 or 397 - its just the human tendency to round off that makes round numbers seem more unlikely.
I'd say that it's highly improbable that with constant crew rotations, promotions, reassignments, etc., that a ship would have an exact round number of crew at any time.
There'd be a 1/10 chance, surely! Not exactly bad odds.
Timo and Dukhat - allow me to clarify my position. In "exact round number" I took that to mean a number rounded off to the nearest 10 - be that 430, 400, 370 or whatever. There are never more than ten whole numbers between a number ending in "0" and another number ending in "0". Hence the odds of 1/10

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Old April 5 2014, 05:19 PM   #30
Robert Comsol
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Re: Which 12 Constitution class starships in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
The commissioning plaque on the TOS bridge says Starship Class.
I'm late to the party, today. Allow me to look at some historical facts (from The Making of Star Trek, September 1968).

On August 8, 1967, D.C. Fontana wrote to Gene Roddenberry: "Dear Gene: We have, in the course of a season and a half, established that Star Fleet includes 12 ships of the starship class." ...

One day later Bob Justman wrote back: "Dear Gene: [D.C. Fontana] suggests that we establish the names of the 12 ships of the Enterprise Starship Class." ...

I have always taken Bob Justman's reply as a subtle correction of Fontana's incomplete statement. He probably knew that Matt Jefferies had intended the Enterprise to be "the first bird", "the first in the series" and therefore, IMO, the commissioning plaque says (USS) Enterprise Starship Class.

However, in the chapter "Mission and Men" it says:

The Enterprise is a member of the Starship Class (there are twelve of them) Registry Number NCC-1701. Starship class vessels are the largest and most powerful man-made ships in space. ... The Enterprise-class starships have been in existence ...

I respect the creators' intentions, so it was either "Starship Class", "Enterprise Class" or "Enterprise Starship Class".

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Does anybody know where the term "Constitution Class" first appeared? I remember Picard said it aloud in "Relics" when he entered Scotty's simulation of the bridge, but that can't be the first usage.
That term appeared first on the small print of the primary phaser chematic, intended for "Space Seed" (as one of several starship manuals Khan studied!) and on the screen Scotty studied in "The Trouble With Tribbles".

In TNG that was Picard's reaction to the onscreen display in "The Naked Time" (which could have been the schematic of NCC-1701-A, definitely "Constitution Class" according to ST VI-TUC).

Next, Picard identified the holodeck bridge recreation in "Relics" as one belonging to a Constitution Class starship.

Where it gets interesting is this: After Scotty had specified "NCC-1701" the computer didn't ask for additional details like Pike's NCC-1701, Kirk's NCC-1701, Decker's NCC-1701 or Spock's NCC-1701.

The way I see it, all the computer had to offer was a holodeck bridge recreation of a Constitution Class starship, actually the one in the Starfleet museum. You can instantly spot several details that make it clear that this was not the bridge of Kirk's Enterprise NCC-1701.

According to the "Jefferies Nomenclature" the Enterprise was the first ship of the 17th Federation cruiser design, thus it would follow that all starships with a prefix of "17" belong to the Enterprise Starship Class.

But according to the starship status chart in "Court Martial" we do have starships that have a prefix of "16" which, IMHO, indicates Constitution Starship Class.

Who makes the statement about the crew complement of the Intrepid in "The Immunity Syndrome"? That was Spock, and I for one wouldn't doubt the accuracy of his statement and take it as canon that the Intrepid only had a crew of 400.

Quite possible the explanation is rather simple: Standard crew complement of Constitution Starship Class is 400, standard crew complement of Enterprise Starship Class is 428. YMMV.

Bob
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