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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 29 2014, 01:21 AM   #16
dub
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

No worries, just keep an updated copy of yourself in the transporter buffer. I always thought the lift made for some cool visuals. I never thought about the danger in-universe or for the cast/crew.
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Old March 29 2014, 04:24 AM   #17
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

Timo wrote: View Post
...Which reminds me, another recent thread mentioned the E-E bridge set in ST:NEM as having been (re)built to stand on a shaking mechanism. Is that just an urban legend or what? Sure, they left out any scenes connecting the set to the Ready Room or the Observation Lounge, but it's still a rather large area - wouldn't it have to be disproportionately sturdy and heavy so as not to lose integrity when shaken?

Timo Saloniemi
It was done with the GEN's E-B bridge as well, and that was done years after the set was built for TFF.
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Old March 30 2014, 08:44 AM   #18
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

Timo wrote: View Post
...Which reminds me, another recent thread mentioned the E-E bridge set in ST:NEM as having been (re)built to stand on a shaking mechanism. Is that just an urban legend or what? Sure, they left out any scenes connecting the set to the Ready Room or the Observation Lounge, but it's still a rather large area - wouldn't it have to be disproportionately sturdy and heavy so as not to lose integrity when shaken?

Timo Saloniemi
The Nemesis E bridge was indeed built on a gimbal.

trevanian wrote: View Post
It was done with the GEN's E-B bridge as well, and that was done years after the set was built for TFF.
Are you sure? I thought I recalled the only mechanization being "seat shakers" (I think. Or it may have just been the D that got those?) ...and visually, the film seems to only use actor-rocking/camera shake and some particularly obvious digital camera shake added in post.
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Old April 4 2014, 07:46 AM   #19
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

bbjeg wrote: View Post
Cardassian regulations state; Who cares? I'm sure the station's designers cared more about getting Bajor's resources then employee safety. I think the Federation didn't change it due to there always being something bigger to worry about.
Agreed.

It was implied in several episodes, most notably Destiny that the Cardassians were not as concerned and the Feds were almost too cautious with safety protocols and secondary backups. As it was said this being a Cardassian mining station manned by slave labor probably meant safety was even less of a priority.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Feds had installed at least an unseen force field around the lift for when it was not present in ops. Also I agree with the idea that the lift probably slowed considerably when coming and going from ops.
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Old April 4 2014, 08:26 AM   #20
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

What slave labor? Bajorans were treated like dirt, but we never really heard anything about slavery aboard Terok Nor.

We heard of at least one planetside labor camp where people were locked up (for supposed crimes) and then told to mine stuff for no obvious compensation. But DS9 did not appear to involve many elements of locking up. Say, commuting Bajoran laborers were shuffled through the Promenade, a supposedly "Cardassian" part of the station with entertainment facilities such as Quark's; see "Necessary Evil". The episode also shows how said laborers could be operating shops, or hanging around enjoying a cup of tea, or having rather short assignments to the station, followed not by retirement-through-burial but reassignment (as with Kira's cover)... The Ferengi are said to pay their Bajorans, and not just to pay for their Bajorans. It very much seems as if DS9 is an opportunity for the privileged Bajoran elite, a way of surviving the Occupation under a somewhat lighter and cleaner heel than most.

Whether Cardassians pay the workers, we don't know. What it takes to get assigned to a specific work detail, we don't know. But there's nothing explicitly pointing to slavery there, just to a defeated and subjugated population continuing their lives in a two-tier society.

Which as such might not be all that new or objectionable to Bajorans, who until then had lived in a strict caste system! Basically, it's just the same system pared down to two castes, with the standard of living plummeting and with feral Bajorans trying to usher in nationalist fervor and a caste of their own.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Feds had installed at least an unseen force field around the lift for when it was not present in ops.
In "Crossfire", a sabotaged and falling lift had no such field to stop Odo from turning himself into a mechanical brake that pressed against the shaft walls. Whether such a field had been there before the sabotage, we don't know.

Also I agree with the idea that the lift probably slowed considerably when coming and going from ops.
Cardassian architects and engineers are also big on psychology: the Prefect's Office looms over Ops, there are humiliating pits and dominating catwalks all over, and so forth. Having the lift very slowly emerge from the floor/pedestal might look "dignified", and also "menacing" as the head of the Prefect slowly emerges and takes a good look at the surroundings, followed by his impressive body in full armor. Or "humiliating" as an arriving guest has to watch the Ops masters' boots up close for a long time...

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Old April 4 2014, 03:12 PM   #21
George Steinbrenner
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

Timo wrote: View Post
What slave labor? Bajorans were treated like dirt, but we never really heard anything about slavery aboard Terok Nor.
You've never seen the flashback episodes, have you? We saw how the Bajorans were treated. It was obvious slavery.
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Old April 4 2014, 03:36 PM   #22
Timo
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

Well, no. Being treated like dirt doesn't equate slavery: only being treated like dirt you own does.

Several classic indications of slavery were left missing: lack of monetary compensation, lack of free movement from job to job, lack of privacy, lack of right to do things like marry and have kids without consent from the owners.

There are much worse paying jobs today than the ones the Bajorans aboard DS9 were shown doing...

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Old April 4 2014, 03:39 PM   #23
George Steinbrenner
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

Timo wrote: View Post
Several classic indications of slavery were left missing: lack of monetary compensation, lack of free movement from job to job, lack of privacy, lack of right to do things like marry and have kids without consent from the owners.

There are much worse paying jobs today than the ones the Bajorans aboard DS9 were shown doing...

Timo Saloniemi
The Bajoran workers were not allowed to leave DS9 (no free movement). They had to live in community quarters (no privacy). They were obviously not paid. They had no rights under Cardassian law. That means they are slaves.
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Old April 4 2014, 07:30 PM   #24
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

What slave labor? Bajorans were treated like dirt, but we never really heard anything about slavery aboard Terok Nor.
Let’s go to the source, and check with dialogue…

We heard it from Sisko (calling out Dukat on it):

From By Inferno’s Light:

DUKAT: That space station you're so fond of was built by Cardassia.

SISKO Funny, I thought it was built by Bajoran slave labor.
But of course that was while the station was being built. Perhaps they released those slaves and brought on paid Bajorans to process the ore after it was finished… Nope.

From A Time to Stand: (Quark comparing the Dominion Occupation with the previous one)

QUARK: I'm not just concerned about profit, major. Look around -- do you see any ghetto fences dividing the Promenade? Or exhausted Bajoran slave laborers, sprawled on the ground after a grueling day in the Ore Processing Center? Do you hear the cries of starving children? I don't. Now don't get me wrong, I miss the Federation, too. All I'm saying is things could be a lot worse.
I’d say yes. Call it what you will, but they called it Slavery.
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Old April 4 2014, 08:02 PM   #25
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

Timo wrote: View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if the Feds had installed at least an unseen force field around the lift for when it was not present in ops.
In "Crossfire", a sabotaged and falling lift had no such field to stop Odo from turning himself into a mechanical brake that pressed against the shaft walls. Whether such a field had been there before the sabotage, we don't know.
On this one I merely meant that the Feds would probably install a force field at the entrance of the turbolift in Ops during the times it was not in use so that people wouldn't get squashed as they stood on the platform. Like a baby gate.

However, this does make me wonder about The Forsaken, where for the better part of the episode, Odo was trapped with Lwaxana because of an exposed current around the turbolifts. They must have either gotten that fixed by Crossfire or technically Odo's hydraulic arms never left the compartment, so he was never exposed to the danger that kept him trapped in the previous episode.
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Old April 4 2014, 08:05 PM   #26
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

^Odo's arms didn't leave the compartment. He didn't press directly against the shaft walls, he pressed the walls of the car outward to press against the shaft walls.

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/thum...bum=100&page=9
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Old April 5 2014, 03:09 AM   #27
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Odo's arms didn't leave the compartment. He didn't press directly against the shaft walls, he pressed the walls of the car outward to press against the shaft walls.

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/thum...bum=100&page=9
We don't see what happens to his left arm. He places it pretty close to where the open door space is.
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Old April 5 2014, 03:24 AM   #28
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

I see no reason to assume that his arm left the compartment. I mean, that wouldn't even have worked. He had to slow the car down, not just his own body. The only way to do that was to increase friction between the car and the shaft walls. So of course he pushed the walls outward from the inside, both walls, because that's the only way it would've had the desired effect. Just think about the physics for a bit and it should be self-evident.
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Old April 5 2014, 09:14 AM   #29
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

I see no reason either to assume it either, I'm merely stating facts.
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Old April 5 2014, 05:15 PM   #30
Timo
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Re: that pesky Ops turbolift

The Bajoran workers were not allowed to leave DS9 (no free movement).
Kira was. Or her alias in "Necessary Evil" was, to be accurate. So was the collaborator the story used as the excuse for the flashbacks. And so was his mysterious girlfriend (the more or less imaginary character inspired by Kira's alias). His wife's movements probably had to be fairly free, too, for the plot to work.

Obviously, there would have been different castes of Bajoran workers there - some being worked to death behind lock and key, others being pampered. But that already defies the idea that Bajorans would categorically have been slaves, and it especially contradicts the exact claim made earlier, namely all Bajorans aboard Terok Nor being slaves.

They had to live in community quarters (no privacy).
Bou hou. That's got nothing to do with the sort of loss of privacy that characterizes slavery. Supposedly, people were having a secret carnal affair in "Necessary Evil", which indicates way more privacy than many paid workers enjoy today at either their workplaces or accommodations.

They were obviously not paid.
Nothing obvious about it. The murdered collaborator operated a shop, for Prophet's sakes!

They had no rights under Cardassian law.
Never stated. Cardassian law was intent on punishing those who killed the Bajoran shopkeeper (even if via executing random bystanders), and OTOH Cardassian law apparently sent certain people to those labor camps to work and die but let others operate private enterprises - but we got no evidence either way whether Bajorans had rights.

That means they are slaves.
No, none of it does. Now this is closer to it:

Let’s go to the source, and check with dialogue…
We heard it from Sisko (calling out Dukat on it)
Why should we believe Sisko? He was not there, and he's the enemy of the Cardassians. He'd call Dukat all sorts of ugly names and feel proud of it. This is the weakest bit of evidence yet...

QUARK: I'm not just concerned about profit, major. Look around -- do you see any ghetto fences dividing the Promenade? Or exhausted Bajoran slave laborers, sprawled on the ground after a grueling day in the Ore Processing Center?
...While this is the strongest. But what we learn here is that the people who worked in the facilities shown in "Civil Defense" were slaves; the people more or less freely coming and going on the Promenade, enjoying their secret affairs and running their businesses and schemes were not.

Apropos, for an interesting technical detail...

...do you see any ghetto fences dividing the Promenade?
Why did the Cardassians erect chicken wire fences on the Promenade? They designed the place - why did they install fences and gates rather than more solid walls and doors? It doesn't sound likely that the use of Bajoran slave labor would have been a late addition to the station concept; it's mysterious why slave labor would visit the Promenade in the first place.

Then again, Quark doesn't associate the fences with slaves, and neither does "Necessary Evil". That episode shows the fences being used to guide and contain the otherwise freely commuting non-slave Bajorans like Kira's alias. Quite possibly, free Bajorans were the late addition to the concept! It may be that originally there weren't going to be any locals involved in running the Promenade services, but it turned out that using trusted locals was cheaper and psychologically more suited for the mighty overlords.

Or then every free Bajoran on the station was in fact a collaborator being sheltered from his or her surface-bound countrymen and -women - but if so, the revelations in "Necessary Evil" should not have come as a surprise to anybody involved.

So of course he pushed the walls outward from the inside, both walls, because that's the only way it would've had the desired effect.
To nitpick, deforming the lift from one side should be enough to jam it in the shaft. But how Odo could achieve that without pushing on two opposite walls is another question. Yes, he could push against the shaft wall speeding past, but he probably wouldn't opt to, if lift deformation was his purpose.

But the explicit facts are vague there, as is the entire concept of a lift falling inside a structure that floats in space.

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