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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old April 4 2014, 07:23 AM   #91
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

captainkirk wrote: View Post
The reason for the similarities is that both movies used the classic Hero's Journey story structure.
No, the Hero's Journey is by design very, very general; it wouldn't account for the more specific similarities. It's like the way would-be prophets couch their prophecies in very vague terms in order to have plausible deniability when the specifics of their predictions inevitably fail.

(Perhaps for just that reason, the "Hero's Journey" is the source of a whole lot of sorry-arsed excuse-making for bad, lazy scripts and plots. Star Wars: A New Hope caught a zeitgeist moment, but that doesn't make it particularly well-written, it wasn't. It was just adequate to its purpose enough to not get in the way of the genuinely brilliant visual design and effects.)
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Old April 4 2014, 04:10 PM   #92
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

Paramount has already renewed Bad Robot's Mission Impossible contract twice. Star Trek 3 would have to be a failure for the same not to happen with Bad Robot's Star Trek contract.
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Old April 4 2014, 04:42 PM   #93
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

BigJake wrote: View Post
captainkirk wrote: View Post
The reason for the similarities is that both movies used the classic Hero's Journey story structure.
No, the Hero's Journey is by design very, very general; it wouldn't account for the more specific similarities.
Since there are no specific similarities, as I mentioned above, captainkirk's explaination is completely on-point.
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Old April 4 2014, 04:49 PM   #94
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

captainkirk wrote: View Post
The reason for the similarities is that both movies used the classic Hero's Journey story structure.
But TOS already had its own structure, courtesy Gene Coon and some others who effectively built on the slightly thin GR concept, with the Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic integrating into a single compelling whole that was always at odds with itself to one degree or other, with THAT set against whatever the issue or villain or plot happened to be.

When you throw that out the airlock and plop in the Campbell framework, you're jettisoning or replacing core key aspects with a template that while conventionally safe, is probably as ill-suited to TREK as the many attempts to retrofit TWOK onto various Trek projects of the last 30 years.
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Old April 4 2014, 04:57 PM   #95
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

BigJake wrote: View Post
captainkirk wrote: View Post
The reason for the similarities is that both movies used the classic Hero's Journey story structure.
No, the Hero's Journey is by design very, very general; it wouldn't account for the more specific similarities. It's like the way would-be prophets couch their prophecies in very vague terms in order to have plausible deniability when the specifics of their predictions inevitably fail.

(Perhaps for just that reason, the "Hero's Journey" is the source of a whole lot of sorry-arsed excuse-making for bad, lazy scripts and plots. Star Wars: A New Hope caught a zeitgeist moment, but that doesn't make it particularly well-written, it wasn't. It was just adequate to its purpose enough to not get in the way of the genuinely brilliant visual design and effects.)
Along with editing and use of sound (effects AND music.) Ever since I started looking at that movie on laserdisc, I realized that while I have never really loved it (for all its structural oddness, EMPIRE is the last really good SW movie, and for me probably the first as well), I really dig certain sections, and that is owing more to editing and use of sound (even, I grudgingly concede, to the misuse of sound in space) than the way it was shot or even the VFX.

Even though I was there opening day in 77 and enjoyed myself, it was never a thing for me. When William Goldman mentioned seeing SW on a reissue (1980 or so) and feeling how the whole audience felt embarrassed watching it, that they couldn't understand what had gotten them so thrilled before, I GOT that ... and therefore really don't get why SW continues its hold over so many, especially newer audiences that should by all rights find it stodgy as well as barely credible. By the fact I can't point to a single reason, and definitely discount the Campbell mythos as a key, I have to just accept it is just the mix of the aforementioned elements that captured lighting in a bottle for so many. And I can console myself that at least they're not holding SMOKEY & THE BANDIT conventions by the boatload.
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Old April 4 2014, 05:20 PM   #96
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

If there is you won't know about it.
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Old April 4 2014, 05:41 PM   #97
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

The Stig wrote: View Post
Since there are no specific similarities, as I mentioned above . . .
Well, you tried, anyway.

I'm curious, though. What would qualify for you as a specific similarity?
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Old April 5 2014, 06:29 AM   #98
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

Here's how I see the similarities:

Elements that existed long before J.J. took over (Kirk being a farmboy, the movie being set in space) + Hero's Journey = a movie that some people might find similar to Star Wars. And I'll admit that J.J. may have taken inspiration from SW, but didn't Roddenberry steal from Forbidden Planet?
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Old April 5 2014, 07:57 PM   #99
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

captainkirk wrote:
And I'll admit that J.J. may have taken inspiration from SW, but didn't Roddenberry steal from Forbidden Planet?
Everyone steals from everyone (if not usually quite this wholesale, although to his credit Abrams does remix some of the elements). Like I already said, it's neither a criticism nor a point of praise, it's simply description.

Yeah, basically, when I said "specific similarities": the Hero's Journey meme involves very vague, general descriptions of story beats. Many other stories using it have involved variously:



Those are all separately items you could find in many stories. As a group of concepts though -- each of them a more specific versions of the general Hero's Journey beats -- they're an aggregate that is pretty much native to Star Wars (and recognizably so). That pretty much this same highly recognizable aggregate also just happens to crop up in Trek films made by an SW fan could of course be sheer coincidence... if like The Stig one is dedicated to not seeing what is directly in front of one's nose.
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Old April 5 2014, 09:25 PM   #100
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

It's fun to watch people argue on the internet, trying to one-up each other and stuff.

But all that aside, back to the topic at hand: Who should the mantle fall to next?
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Old April 5 2014, 10:06 PM   #101
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

BigJake wrote: View Post
...

Yeah, basically, when I said "specific similarities": the Hero's Journey meme involves very vague, general descriptions of story beats. Many other stories using it have involved variously:



Those are all separately items you could find in many stories. As a group of concepts though -- each of them a more specific versions of the general Hero's Journey beats -- they're an aggregate that is pretty much native to Star Wars (and recognizably so).
So, in other words:



?

urbandefault wrote: View Post
It's fun to watch people argue on the internet, trying to one-up each other and stuff.
Hilarious.
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Old April 5 2014, 10:12 PM   #102
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

urbandefault wrote: View Post
It's fun to watch people argue on the internet, trying to one-up each other and stuff.


Sometimes folks just like to compare recipes, is all.

But all that aside, back to the topic at hand: Who should the mantle fall to next?
We haven't suggested Joe Cornish yet, have we?
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Old April 5 2014, 10:23 PM   #103
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
So, in other words:

I was not familiar with that video. Amusing.
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Old April 6 2014, 12:35 AM   #104
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

BigJake wrote: View Post
urbandefault wrote: View Post
But all that aside, back to the topic at hand: Who should the mantle fall to next?
We haven't suggested Joe Cornish yet, have we?
In this thread? Not yet.

BigJake wrote: View Post
M'Sharak wrote: View Post
So, in other words:

I was not familiar with that video. Amusing.
It's pretty old, but seems to hit many of the same points in semi-humorous fashion, so I figured I might as well bring it back.
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Old April 6 2014, 01:04 AM   #105
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Re: To Whom Should the Movie Mantle Pass Post-Abrams

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
urbandefault wrote: View Post
It's fun to watch people argue on the internet, trying to one-up each other and stuff.
Hilarious.
So glad you agree.

I wonder how many dead horses can be beat before there are no more dead horses?
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