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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 3 2014, 03:00 PM   #226
LOKAI of CHERON
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

trekker670 wrote: View Post
LOKAI of CHERON wrote: View Post
No, that's not correct....

Zooming on your TV is most definitely not the same. That simply blows up the centre of the image - and I guarantee - for the most part, it looks bloody terrible. "Cut off" heads aplenty!
That's why I clearly said "essentially," yes, I'm well aware that the studios use a smart technique for the cropping, but the effect is similar. Whether your doing a smart crop or zooming on the center of the image, you're losing the same amount of information. The difference, as you stated, is whether the lost information is the top of heads or not.

And, in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't condoning the cropping of the show. I am a firm believer in OAR. My statement was to make the point that we should get the shows as they were originally produced, because people who want the widescreen appearance can already do that on their own.
OK, thanks for the clarification, trekker670. It's good to know another paid up member of the OAR club! Hopefully, we can stop the madness of cropping!
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Old April 3 2014, 09:26 PM   #227
Hober Mallow
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

BBC-A airs TNG in (mostly) widescreen. Looks freaking horrible.
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Old April 3 2014, 10:25 PM   #228
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

^^ No doubt it does, but that's inevitable when you only have the final 4:3 image to make the widescreen extraction from.

Here is an old (but still graphic) visualization how a TNG (or DS9) widescreen image could look like more or less, provided you had access to the original camera negatives.

Bob
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Old April 3 2014, 10:57 PM   #229
Hober Mallow
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
^^ No doubt it does, but that's inevitable when you only have the final 4:3 image to make the widescreen extraction from.

Here is an old (but still graphic) visualization how a TNG (or DS9) widescreen image could look like more or less, provided you had access to the original camera negatives.

Bob
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Old April 4 2014, 12:23 AM   #230
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

And the centre of Picard's head no longer intersecting the first vertical third of the frame.
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Old April 4 2014, 12:48 AM   #231
Hober Mallow
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

And then all the red of Picard's uniform is cropped out.
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Old April 4 2014, 06:46 AM   #232
Maxwell Everett
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Mage wrote: View Post
The combo of zooming and stretching is just horrible, and if there are actually people out there that think that altering an original 4:3 source into 16:9, I'd love to see some examples of that done properly, because I haven't encountered it yet.
I mentioned it earlier, but "Broken Bow" looks pretty decent. You'd never guess it was shot and completely finished in 4:3. But that's because the director was given the time to reframe it carefully shot by shot before it aired. That kind of director involvement would likely never happen with the last few seasons of a DS9-R, I'm afraid.
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Old April 4 2014, 09:41 AM   #233
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Another aspect ratio discussion? *sigh*

DS9 was always shot with 4:3 in mind. They made test to film it in a way both 4:3 and 16:9 were possible. They made special ground glasses for that. But the results were bad and they decided to keep shooting for 4:3. There was an article about this somewhere. Maybe someone knows where.

Even if 2/3 of the scenes work in 16:9 (which I doubt) it's useless because 1/3 will still look horrible. Also that most scenes will include additional footage on the sides without props, lightstands etc. visible is more wishful thinking than anything else. Buffy was mentioned as a good example.

TNG is 4:3 and almost no one is complaining about that anymore. So keep DS9 at 4:3 as it was meant to be.
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Old April 4 2014, 10:37 AM   #234
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

d514 wrote: View Post
Another aspect ratio discussion? *sigh*

DS9 was always shot with 4:3 in mind. They made test to film it in a way both 4:3 and 16:9 were possible. They made special ground glasses for that. But the results were bad and they decided to keep shooting for 4:3. There was an article about this somewhere. Maybe someone knows where.

Even if 2/3 of the scenes work in 16:9 (which I doubt) it's useless because 1/3 will still look horrible. Also that most scenes will include additional footage on the sides without props, lightstands etc. visible is more wishful thinking than anything else. Buffy was mentioned as a good example.

TNG is 4:3 and almost no one is complaining about that anymore. So keep DS9 at 4:3 as it was meant to be.
What always surprises me is how big an issue the whole 16:9 thing is to people. I mean of all the things one could discuss about a remastered release this gets brought up again and again and again. What is truly annoying is that no progress is made with this debate in the face of rock solid arguments for maintaining the original aspect ratio. The 16:9 crowd just ignore what ever is said and keep spamming their redudant opinions.
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Old April 4 2014, 10:57 AM   #235
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Tosk wrote: View Post
Europe was indeed much faster to adopt true aspect ratio releases on VHS, but even then it was a niche market compared to the decade of Pan&Scanned releases that came before.
In Germany I only remember letterboxed movies on VHS. Probably because PAL has a higher vertical resolution with 576i (compared to 480i NTSC). So having movies letterboxed in NTSC just means the picture gets too blurry, while PAL can handle it better.
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Old April 4 2014, 12:42 PM   #236
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Jefferies wrote: View Post

What always surprises me is how big an issue the whole 16:9 thing is to people. I mean of all the things one could discuss about a remastered release this gets brought up again and again and again. What is truly annoying is that no progress is made with this debate in the face of rock solid arguments for maintaining the original aspect ratio.
I've watched many, many hours of Star Trek under less than ideal conditions over the years. I, for one, would like to have 16:9 as an option on the discs along side 4:3.
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Old April 4 2014, 01:54 PM   #237
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Jefferies wrote: View Post

What always surprises me is how big an issue the whole 16:9 thing is to people. I mean of all the things one could discuss about a remastered release this gets brought up again and again and again. What is truly annoying is that no progress is made with this debate in the face of rock solid arguments for maintaining the original aspect ratio.
I've watched many, many hours of Star Trek under less than ideal conditions over the years. I, for one, would like to have 16:9 as an option on the discs along side 4:3.
Yes, options are always the way in these cases - totally agree. The only downside is the practicality of offering both aspect ratios.

You can't do it via seamless branching, so, the choices are: Drop the bitrate (quite considerably) on one/both of the encodes, or, double up on the discs - never going to happen IMO.
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Old April 4 2014, 01:57 PM   #238
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

BillJ wrote: View Post

I've watched many, many hours of Star Trek under less than ideal conditions over the years. I, for one, would like to have 16:9 as an option on the discs along side 4:3.
Be realistic. You would have to significantly reduce the bit rate for each episode if you have them doubled up on each disc or double the amount of discs per season. How could that be feasible?

Also why should CBS invest a significant amount of money in reframing all these episodes if the outcome will be no more than a flawed compromise?

This project will be pricey enough as it is with near insurmountable hurdles to solve on a very tight budget. Making 16:9 available for a couple of pillarbox phobics just doesn't seem like a viable priority.
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Old April 4 2014, 06:06 PM   #239
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Jefferies wrote: View Post

This project will be pricey enough as it is with near insurmountable hurdles to solve on a very tight budget. Making 16:9 available for a couple of pillarbox phobics just doesn't seem like a viable priority.
I don't think its "pillarbox phobics". As we move further and further into the 16:9 world, some of these shows might have trouble finding broadcasters willing to pay top dollar for 4:3 content. Even BBC America blows up the picture on TNG-SD so it uses more of the screen.

TNG-HD still isn't available here in the States via broadcast.
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Old April 4 2014, 06:27 PM   #240
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Jefferies wrote: View Post

This project will be pricey enough as it is with near insurmountable hurdles to solve on a very tight budget. Making 16:9 available for a couple of pillarbox phobics just doesn't seem like a viable priority.
I don't think its "pillarbox phobics". As we move further and further into the 16:9 world, some of these shows might have trouble finding broadcasters willing to pay top dollar for 4:3 content. Even BBC America blows up the picture on TNG-SD so it uses more of the screen.

TNG-HD still isn't available here in the States via broadcast.
Well the BBC doesn't exactly have a history of treating its Star Trek broadcasts with respect. Always seemed like a low priority for them. Having said that over here in the UK it certainly isn't unusual for old content to be broadcast in its original aspect ratio and I believe the last time I saw a Star Trek episode on TV it was indeed shown in 4:3. Thing is people and broadcasters can do with it what they like. They can zoom, crop, stretch to their heart's content no one will stop them. But at least the original is still there 100% with nothing taken away or taken out of proportion. Really can't see what's so horrendous about that.
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