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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old April 1 2014, 08:08 PM   #16
The Keeper
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

BigJake wrote: View Post
The Keeper wrote: View Post
Is it possible much of the hesitation going on with CBS/Paramount about Trek has to do with US?
No.

The fans have never terrified suits anywhere by Having Opinions, only other fans give a sh*t about that.The only thing that scares them is not making money.
So, and I honestly don't know the answer, in their opinions, it's better to just sit on Trek for now, throwing out an occasion flick as they are doing, rather than open studio depts. to actively develop new commodities under the Trek brand which would serve different demographics, such as the OP is suggesting?

People, and not just fans, like Star Trek. The numovies proved that. It's a world wide phenom as much as any other. I have friends who, though not rabid fans like me, ask me where the all the Trek has gone to, why isn't more being made like it used to be?

There is an audience out there, waiting and wondering for what's next but the suits don't seem to notice or care. Why aren't they actively growing the brand in light of this broad appeal?

(Opinionated or not, the simple fact of the matter is that the fanbase is astonishingly loyal to all but the most awful or lacklustre product.) Nobody is killing Trek by Having Opinions about what they like.
Fair enough. One of the most disappointing days in my life was the day I woke up and realized I had fallen asleep during an episode of Trek the night before.
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Old April 1 2014, 10:31 PM   #17
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

The Keeper wrote: View Post
So, and I honestly don't know the answer, in their opinions, it's better to just sit on Trek for now, throwing out an occasion flick as they are doing, rather than open studio depts. to actively develop new commodities under the Trek brand which would serve different demographics, such as the OP is suggesting?
If I had to guess? It's probably a combination of a) trying to work out the best way to approach a medium that's changing as rapidly as television currently is (and how best to take advantage of new on-demand formats, which is how a lot of people these days watch television), and b) holding off to let demand for televised Trek -- televised space adventure of any kind -- build (having learned lessons about over-saturation from having too many different Trek products running at once in the Nineties).

Were I put in charge of returning Trek to television, at any rate, I'd want to make a big splash of it, for it to have buzz and profile comparable to something like Game of Thrones. (In that sense I'm not joking about the comparison; it doesn't have to be a grimdark drama but it would need to be delivered with serious impact and in a way that puts it at the forefront of today's media formats and action / drama standards.) Something like that takes time to do right, though.

One of the most disappointing days in my life was the day I woke up and realized I had fallen asleep during an episode of Trek the night before.


[EDIT: Incidentally? I think the wait is a good thing. CBS and Paramount are both ultimately owned by National Amusements. Organizations tend to reflect the person at the top. The person at the top of National Amusements right now is Sumner Redstone. This is the sort of thing Sumner Redstone wants to see on television. And he is active, to put it mildly, about promoting what he wants. But he's also 91, and he won't be around forever.]
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Old April 1 2014, 10:41 PM   #18
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

Impossible IMHO. It would need a producer with masses of knowledge of Trek pulling the strings and one who is insanely talented. I don't think such a person exists! Not someone who can approach a studio asking for $500 million and getting it ! Unless its James Cameron and he has been a massive Trekkie all these years.

Anyway......

Prime Trek was a multi-format mega franchise long before this Marvel movie thing came along !
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Old April 2 2014, 12:04 AM   #19
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

BigJake wrote: View Post

Were I put in charge of returning Trek to television, at any rate, I'd want to make a big splash of it, for it to have buzz and profile comparable to something like Game of Thrones. (In that sense I'm not joking about the comparison; it doesn't have to be a grimdark drama but it would need to be delivered with serious impact and in a way that puts it at the forefront of today's media formats and action / drama standards.) Something like that takes time to do right, though.
I haven't seen GoT so I cannot comment on that but we agree in the sense of going big time on a new Trek project if it were either of us with the keys.

[EDIT: CBS and Paramount are both ultimately owned by National Amusements. Organizations tend to reflect the person at the top. The person at the top of National Amusements right now is Sumner Redstone. This is the sort of thing Sumner Redstone wants to see on television. And he is active, to put it mildly, about promoting what he wants. But he's also 91, and he won't be around forever.]
That's odd. I've never felt a tingle and a shudder at the same time before.
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Old April 2 2014, 01:17 AM   #20
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

The difference is that Marvel superheros are a part of pop culture and DS9, VOY, and ENT decidedly aren't. TNG achieved a high level of popularity, and even that group couldn't get butts in theater seats.

Berman-Trek is dead and never coming back.
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Old April 2 2014, 01:29 AM   #21
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

In point of fact they got butts in theater-seats just fine when any effort at all went into making and marketing the movie.

(That is an interesting comparison, though: actually if the MCU had restricted themselves to the most recognized heroes in their stable, the Iron Man and Thor movies and the Avengers series as we know it never would have happened.)
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Old April 2 2014, 01:34 AM   #22
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

BigJake wrote: View Post
That is an interesting comparison, though: actually if the MCU had restricted themselves to the most recognized heroes in their stable, the Iron Man and Thor movies and the Avengers series as we know it never would have happened.)
Iron Man and Thor may not have been the most recognizable Marvel heroes, but they were and are a hell of a lot more recognizable to the general public than Jonathan Archer or Ben Sisko. "Jonathan who?"
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Old April 2 2014, 01:42 AM   #23
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

^ Than Archer, probably. (Still in denial about DS9, I see? )
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Old April 2 2014, 05:11 AM   #24
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

BigJake wrote: View Post
^ Than Archer, probably. (Still in denial about DS9, I see? )
Well, going by Google NGram on a comparison of Spider-Man, Iron Man, Benjamin Sisko, Kathryn Janeway, and Jonathan Archer:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/inte...aneway%3B%2Cc0

Sorry for the horrible URL, but I can't seem to embed the Google NGram directly on the BBS. Note that Google NGrams are not ideal measure as they only report on the appearance of phrases in books which Google Books has digitized, and of course it takes time for things to be talked about in print, and something can be the subject of considerable written attentions without really being part of public consciousness and vice-versa.

(Unfortunately for our purposes the term ``iron man'' is used for more than just the comic book superhero, who debuted in 1963. So I've used a time frame which starts at 1960, so that the base level for 1960 to 1965 can be used as a rough level of definitely non-comic-book references to Iron Man.)
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Old April 2 2014, 05:21 AM   #25
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

I am not a comics guy and before the MCU lit the big screen, the characters I know in order from most familiar to least familiar are Hulk, Captain America and Iron Man. I had heard of some comic loving friends mentioning the term Avengers in but I had zero idea who is in the team or what they do. I did not know of Thor or Loki (to me, they were viking? gods) and I have never heard of Guardians of the Galaxy. In 2000, I would have laughed if anyone told me a movie centered on Iron Man or Thor would be a box office success.

So to me, it doesn't matter if the public is familiar with DS9, VOY or ENT. What's more important is the treatment given to these characters. Frankly, I felt that the producers and writers of the TNG movies had already burnt out from churning out 7+ years of Trek. They were limited by vision, scope and budget. What they gave us was more 1997 Batman & Robin than 2012 The Dark Knight Rises.
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Old April 2 2014, 05:49 AM   #26
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

If Insurrection, Nemesis and Enterprise hadn't flopped as hard as they did, an Avengers-like crossover movie may have been in the cards.

Now? Not so much.
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Old April 2 2014, 07:35 AM   #27
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

BigJake wrote: View Post
(That is an interesting comparison, though: actually if the MCU had restricted themselves to the most recognized heroes in their stable, the Iron Man and Thor movies and the Avengers series as we know it never would have happened.)
Right. IIRC, Iron Man was a b-level hero in the comics, and Robert Downey Jr. was seen as a gamble (and why they could afford to get him to play the lead). It's only recently and because of the success of the movies that we think of both Iron Man and Downey Jr. as A-listers in their fields because it's been a couple years.

intrinsical wrote: View Post
So to me, it doesn't matter if the public is familiar with DS9, VOY or ENT. What's more important is the treatment given to these characters. Frankly, I felt that the producers and writers of the TNG movies had already burnt out from churning out 7+ years of Trek. They were limited by vision, scope and budget. What they gave us was more 1997 Batman & Robin than 2012 The Dark Knight Rises.
Well, it's a bit of prioritization, though. If you hadn't been a big Captain America or Thor fan and scoffed at the idea of them getting movies (as we all had), the idea was definitely eased by Iron Man and the studios' willingness to devote significant time and strategy to unveiling additional heroes and projects one at a time, to build that familiarity until it could be something that Marvel could harvest into big movie bucks.

As it is, in order to make a Trek megafranchise, you'd have to devote a ginormous amount of planning just to begin to get people reacquainted with the characters and, more importantly, expose them to a new audience. However, Prime Trek doesn't have a major marketing outlet in the form a gigantic comics conglomerate. Prime Trek doesn't have an animation studio that keeps pumping out a new batch of shows every two years. Prime Trek doesn't have the pop culture capital to appeal to a large amount of cross-marketing with other brands. And Prime Trek as it is right now won't attract A-level actors to draw in crowds. On the scale that we're talking about here, it's beyond having a decent script or a doable budget, we're talking about a huge promotional strategy that involves countless factors that need to be reined in. In-universe scale is quite different than the scale of business that the machine needs, and without money or the investment, there won't be a film medium to tell a story that respects the characters the way you'd want it. After all, the story needs a medium.

And the thing is, whatever chances that Prime Trek has with that, however slim, is already being occupied by JJTrek, and as Paramount learned the hard way during the Berman era, oversaturating the market with Trek will ultimately weaken the brand. JJTrek would have to get out of the way, but seeing as how it's made Paramount more money than most of past Trek and that it's now elevated to studio tentpole status, that won't be happening anytime soon.
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Old April 2 2014, 07:51 AM   #28
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

Nebusj wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
^ Than Archer, probably. (Still in denial about DS9, I see? )
Well, going by Google NGram on a comparison of Spider-Man, Iron Man, Benjamin Sisko, Kathryn Janeway, and Jonathan Archer:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/inte...aneway%3B%2Cc0

Sorry for the horrible URL, but I can't seem to embed the Google NGram directly on the BBS. Note that Google NGrams are not ideal measure as they only report on the appearance of phrases in books which Google Books has digitized, and of course it takes time for things to be talked about in print, and something can be the subject of considerable written attentions without really being part of public consciousness and vice-versa.

(Unfortunately for our purposes the term ``iron man'' is used for more than just the comic book superhero, who debuted in 1963. So I've used a time frame which starts at 1960, so that the base level for 1960 to 1965 can be used as a rough level of definitely non-comic-book references to Iron Man.)
I think substituting "Peter Parker" and "Tony Stark" probably provides a more accurate picture of the bottom end. (Although, the hyphenated nature of "Spider-Man", makes me more confident of that one)

new chart
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Old April 2 2014, 10:00 AM   #29
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

I didn't know about Google N-Grams, thanks to those who posted them. I don't know that they're much use for measuring pop culture notoriety but they're fascinating anyway.

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
However, Prime Trek doesn't have a major marketing outlet in the form a gigantic comics conglomerate. Prime Trek doesn't have an animation studio that keeps pumping out a new batch of shows every two years.
NB that Prime Trek does in fact have a vast extended universe of novelizations and comics (they've now made the transition to manga format -- a mixed blessing IMO but it's by far the fastest-growing sector of the comics market -- through Tokyopop*). A bit fan-specialized but then any comics pretty much are. As for cartoons, Marvel's current output is concurrent with the MCU, it wasn't a precondition.

Prime Trek doesn't have the pop culture capital to appeal to a large amount of cross-marketing with other brands.
Neither, of course, did the current MCU prior to its existence.

And Prime Trek as it is right now won't attract A-level actors to draw in crowds.
Since it basically doesn't exist on-screen right now, this isn't saying much. This is like saying prior to the first Iron Man movie that Iron Man was a washed up b-lister who could only attract a nine-time loser like Robert Downey, Jr.

Really the barriers to a TNG reboot aren't as formidable as all that, except of course that as long as JJTrek persists there's no reason to do it. I don't know that JJTrek really has a life beyond the next film -- though who knows how long they'll keep trying to flog the formula after that -- but post-that, who knows? I think that people who are loudly declaiming that TNG is dead and shall never rise again perhaps protest a tad too much. I myself would prefer a total from-scratch reboot of the property, but I wouldn't be at all sad to see a TNG reboot happen if it was done well.

(* Bad example, it turns out. The manga was short-lived and @*&!-ing terrible.)
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Old April 2 2014, 12:32 PM   #30
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Re: Star Trek Prime Universe Megafranchise

Cyke wrote:
IIRC, Iron Man was a b-level hero in the comics
I thought he was pretty much A-level.
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