RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,402
Posts: 5,505,778
Members: 25,127
Currently online: 524
Newest member: OneOfFour

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 1 2014, 10:01 AM   #196
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

^^ Absolutely, there were many good artistic reasons, the vocal majority of fans demanded 4:3, and thus put CBS Home Entertainment in the comfortable position to sell TNG-R in 4:3 first plus keep the option for a later release in widescreen.

However, I don't think it's a smart thing to limit your options, and felt some comments of people closely involved with the remastering project to be too close to unnecessary 16:9 bashing.

For the sleeper ship in "The Neutral Zone" elements were missing for 16:9 image extraction, but to claim that they couldn't use the spacedock widescreen footage from ST III-TSFS because the Enterprise-D VFX shot only existed in 4:3 and its edges had been cut off, had an intelligence insulting connotation, IMHO - Because they had a close to perfect CGI recreation of the Enterprise-D, already used in "Farpoint" they could have just used to overcome the deficiency of the Starbase 74 entering Enterprise-D VFX shot.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1 2014, 01:54 PM   #197
ATimson
Rear Admiral
 
ATimson's Avatar
 
Location: Andrew Timson
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Maybe I lack imagination, but I'd find it hard to believe that DS9 on Blu-ray will have a 4:3 aspect ratio in the first seasons and then switch to 16:9 in the last three or two.
Why not? That's what Fox did with Angel.
__________________
Andrew Timson
===============
"Niceness is the greatest human flaw, except for all the others." - Brendan Moody

"...don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido
ATimson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1 2014, 03:34 PM   #198
Savage Dragon
TheSeeker
 
Savage Dragon's Avatar
 
Location: New York, NY
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

Should the fanbase create a "shitstorm" CBS might be inclined to just push the "Off" button, and that might be it for DS9 in high definition.
I seriously doubt a few fans whining online will change their plans.
Savage Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1 2014, 11:34 PM   #199
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

In reference to Burnett's comment, I would strongly vote 4x3. I'm not interested in seeing actors' shoulders and tops of heads cropped out of the frame.

Just hit the zoom button on your BD player and see how long it takes before it gets irritating.

15 years ago, consumers had to fight ignorance and stop studios from cropping 16x9/scope movies to 4x3. Now we have to do the opposite and fight ignorance on cropping 4x3 to 16x9.

Is it 'fair' to today's audiences that movies like Casablanca aren't available in 16x9?
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 1 2014, 11:35 PM   #200
Tosk
Rear Admiral
 
Tosk's Avatar
 
Location: On the run.
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
the vocal majority of fans demanded 4:3
There were just as many people clamoring for a 16x9 version.

Because they had a close to perfect CGI recreation of the Enterprise-D, already used in "Farpoint" they could have just used to overcome the deficiency of the Starbase 74 entering Enterprise-D VFX shot.
The mandate was to use CGI only when necessary elements were missing.

Plus, as you've no doubt read, the show was filmed as 4x3...in that the cropped image area was often filled with empty space and/or filming equipment. Just because they filmed extra space, doesn't make it usable.

jimbotron wrote: View Post
15 years ago, consumers had to fight ignorance and stop studios from cropping 16x9/scope movies to 4x3. Now we have to fight ignorance on cropping 4x3 to 16x9.
Exactly this.
Tosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2014, 12:03 AM   #201
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

If DSN was shot with DSN in mind, I would be happy. If it was shot that way you could make a case that was the way it was meant to be seen. I've hada widescreen TV's since the mid-late 1990's. I believe Europe was quicker to adopt Widscreen TV's than the USA.

And I would disagree that 15 years ago consumers had to fight studio ignorance from cropping movies to 4x3. My memory might be faulty but I could walk into a store and easily buy a Widscreen VHS/DVD true some movies were also released in 4x3 format. But that might be down to my point above.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2014, 01:09 AM   #202
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

jimbotron wrote: View Post
15 years ago, consumers had to fight ignorance and stop studios from cropping 16x9/scope movies to 4x3. Now we have to do the opposite and fight ignorance on cropping 4x3 to 16x9.
Amazing, isn't it? No matter what the standard aspect ratio, there are people who demand their image to be chopped to pieces.

I wonder if the Mona Lisa would look better if we chopped off the top and bottom of it.
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2014, 01:13 AM   #203
Maxwell Everett
Commodore
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Cap.T wrote: View Post
Salinga wrote: View Post
The aspect ratio will be 4:3 for the shows until VOY, because of the same reasons TNG is in 4:3.
I asked Rick Berman on Twitter recently, whether either DS9 or Voyager were ever protected for 16:9. This is what he answered:

DS9 and Voyager were framed with 16/9 in mind...somewhere down the road. Enterprise was shot mostly digital with 16/9 a sure bet.
As LOKAI has already pointed out, Berman is mistaken in that Enterprise was shot mostly with 35mm film, not digital tape.

And when Berman says DS9 and Voyager were framed with 16:9 in mind somewhere down the road, what he really means is that every episode was framed for 4:3 and later on (sometime around '96/'97) it was decided that a 16:9 version would share the same width as the 4:3 area (so-called "common sides") and would have to be meticulously reframed on a shot-by-shot basis via a tape-to-tape Tilt & Scan online repositioning session. This is exactly what happened to the Enterprise pilot "Broken Bow" (and a few other early S1 episodes, I suspect) which was shot 4:3 (just look at the behind the scenes featurettes that show production monitors) and then reframed under the guidance of the director, James Conway, at UPN's insistence because they decided at the last second that they wanted to air the show in 16:9 letterbox.
__________________
"Shake off all the fears & servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion." -Thomas Jefferson
Maxwell Everett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2014, 01:24 AM   #204
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
And I would disagree that 15 years ago consumers had to fight studio ignorance from cropping movies to 4x3. My memory might be faulty but I could walk into a store and easily buy a Widscreen VHS/DVD true some movies were also released in 4x3 format. But that might be down to my point above.
Some studios were better than others. But some, like Disney, were late the widescreen party, and when they did widescreen, it was letterboxed, not optimized for widescreen TVs. Universal took a while too.
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2014, 04:26 AM   #205
Tosk
Rear Admiral
 
Tosk's Avatar
 
Location: On the run.
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
And I would disagree that 15 years ago consumers had to fight studio ignorance from cropping movies to 4x3. My memory might be faulty but I could walk into a store and easily buy a Widscreen VHS/DVD true some movies were also released in 4x3 format. But that might be down to my point above.
Europe was indeed much faster to adopt true aspect ratio releases on VHS, but even then it was a niche market compared to the decade of Pan&Scanned releases that came before. I adopted laserdisc specifically to get away from the P&S of VHS, and we're finally in a paradise where DVD/Blu releases that are in the wrong ratio are in the minority.

Trouble is, "fill my TV!" hasn't gone away, so old 4x3 material is getting butchered due to people either not wanting to *cough* waste space on their TV, or in a misguided attempt to make something more "cinematic". (The idea that just chopping off information that was supposed to be there somehow makes something feel grander is asinine...in my opinion.)

At the end of the day, if someone wants an altered 16x9 version of something shot in 4x3, I don't mind at all...except if it stops the 4x3 version from being released. Release both and I have no complaint. And if you're not going to release both, surely basic common sense says that you should release it the way it was made. (Hi, Star Wars Special Editions, I'm looking at you, you bastards!)
Tosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2014, 08:37 AM   #206
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Yes but if DSN was shot for Widescreen why not release it in that aspect ratio? We aren't talking about changing anything just releasing as it was meant to be seen. Years ago Widescreen films were shown on TV in Pan and Scan Format as Widescreen became more popular in the late 90's and early 2000's TV stations began to show films on TV in widescreen format (at least in the UK).
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2014, 08:45 AM   #207
Tosk
Rear Admiral
 
Tosk's Avatar
 
Location: On the run.
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Yes but if DSN was shot for Widescreen why not release it in that aspect ratio?
It wasn't. This has been stated over and over again. The last few seasons were possibly* shot with 16x9 protection, which is not the same thing.

*Coming from someone who has other facts wrong. Plus the fact that "protected" shows are frequently no such thing. Friends and Buffy are good examples of shows that were supposedly 16x9 safe but the various directors still shot for 4x3 only.
Tosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2014, 09:00 AM   #208
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

That's why I said "IF", but the later seasons of Buffy were released in 1.78:1 format
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2014, 11:29 AM   #209
Tosk
Rear Admiral
 
Tosk's Avatar
 
Location: On the run.
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
That's why I said "IF", but the later seasons of Buffy were released in 1.78:1 format
In the UK and Australia, yes. But at the behest of Joss Whedon, the US release was 4x3.

And when you watch the 16x9 UK releases, you can see why. Empty space around characters huddled together, lighting equipment in the shot, wires coming out of props where they should not be, stagehands in frame holding "demon pieces" and people waiting for their cue to enter a scene.
Tosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2 2014, 01:43 PM   #210
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Tosk wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
the vocal majority of fans demanded 4:3
There were just as many people clamoring for a 16x9 version.
Sorry, that's not how I remember the various TNG aspect ratio discussions in the different forums in late 2011 and early 2012, to me it seemed like 75% advocated 4:3 with the other 25% were being discredited as a minority that didn't understand "art" (I consider Star Trek the art of entertainment, not necessarily the art of cinematography, especially considering many first time directors working on the series).

And the widescreen supporters didn't ask for a rigid zoom to do a debatable 16:9 frame extraction but instead to access the unseen areas on the camera negative to get a wider image and thus to reduce the need of unnecessary trimming at the bottom and especially the top (there is a high probability that studio equipment would not clutter up the sides of close-up shots like the example I just linked to).

The equipment is a problem in full shots like this example from "Lonely Among Us".
However, I don't believe the composition would look any good with all the action in the center and all the expendable areas (even without equipment) in the image, too.
In such cases a widescreen image extraction from the existing 4:3 area could seem like the option yielding the most satisfactory results.

Of course, which was already true for TNG, this just constitutes extra remastering work (= costs) and tasteful decision making to achieve an optimal and good looking widescreen extraction and presentation.

If it is true that sales figures of TNG have started to dwindle down (which I find hard to believe because Seasons Four through Six have the best stories to offer, IMHO) because audiences have now "gotten used" to the breathtaking picture resolution of TNG in HD, CBS might be inclined to get better sales figures for DS9 on Blu-ray by announcing "For the first time in high definition and widescreen".

Whether that is going to happen or not remains entirely speculation, I just think we shouldn't exclude that possibility and be prepared.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:44 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.