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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 11 2014, 12:44 PM   #61
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
I wouldn't say it's a play on them. Rather it's the result of what society expects a "feminist" character to be like.
NuUhura isn't a feminist character. She's just a blackmailing, unprofessional bitch, who is only developed and defined by her 'relationship' with NuSpock.

Kira is a strong and tough female character, who has lived a harsh life and developed a necessary armour to protect herself, but underneath she has great pain and kindness, as well as the capacity of forgiveness and understanding for some of those that occupied her world and oppressed her people. She is probably the best developed individual Trek has had, definitely the one who has shown progressive and consistent growth. She has more character and heart in her left pinky that in NuUhura's entire person.
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Old March 11 2014, 02:32 PM   #62
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Re: The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!

Personally, I am glad they went with Kira instead of Ro. I just couldn't stand the actress, Michelle Forbes. Kira was a rough character the first couple seasons, and took me a while to warm up to, but by season 3. I liked her.
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Old March 11 2014, 03:32 PM   #63
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Re: The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
I wouldn't say it's a play on them. Rather it's the result of what society expects a "feminist" character to be like.
NuUhura isn't a feminist character. She's just a blackmailing, unprofessional bitch, who is only developed and defined by her 'relationship' with NuSpock.

Kira is a strong and tough female character, who has lived a harsh life and developed a necessary armour to protect herself, but underneath she has great pain and kindness, as well as the capacity of forgiveness and understanding for some of those that occupied her world and oppressed her people. She is probably the best developed individual Trek has had, definitely the one who has shown progressive and consistent growth. She has more character and heart in her left pinky that in NuUhura's entire person.
Don't misunderstand me. I am not in any way comparing Kira to nuUhura. I only mentioned nuUhura because her name was mentioned previously in one of the posts above.

The biggest problem for me, is that writers typically write their version of "strong" female characters as "take no bullshit" from anyone, particularly any male that dares challenge their opinion. They usually show their "strength" by beating up people (usually men), and just being generally bitchy and opinionated.

I'll admit Kira does not fill all those stereotypes like other characters in other shows, and I didn't mean to say that she's a "feminist" stereotype. Rather my complain with Kira is with the actress, which I don't feel was able to play the role as the character required it.

Kira as a character could have been very interesting. Here we have a woman who has suffered greatly with Cardassian oppression, but at the same time is highly religious and spiritual.

I would have loved to see:

1. A realistic take on forgiveness as most religions ask of their believers (love thy enemy)

2. A realistic take on holding a grudge against the Federation, which did not lift a finger to help them when they were being oppressed.

3. Genuine sadness when required. Example: Kira's father dies and she's remorseful that she didn't stay with him but went off on some mission to kill some Cardies. Her reaction was to do the same thing again, go kill some Cardies. Would it have killed her to show some sadness at what just happened?


I think Kira as a character is very interesting, but I don't think Nana Visitor was capable of doing more that phoning in her performance for certain character traits that were needed to properly portray that character.

I'll say that this is not exclusively a Nana Visitor issue. Avery Brooks is incapable of showing anything else than brash, abrasive attitude, which works great when he's dealing with the Dominion, but not so much when he's dealing with his crew.

And I could mention horrible acting in other series also. It's just that Nana Visitor's acting is the one that seems to be defended to death. Go on the Voyager forum and you'll see a spade being called a spade (no one disagrees that Harry, or Chakotay were cardboard cutouts for example)
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Old March 11 2014, 05:11 PM   #64
dub
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Re: The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!

I'm not sure if this is a very popular episode, but I also really liked "Progress" for Kira's character. We really saw her softer side shine through here. Her patience with the old man, her pity, her attempts to make things right for him. And I love the way it ended unresolved and not "happily ever after" or "here's what we learned today." Very DS9. Great Kira episode to me!

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Old March 11 2014, 05:13 PM   #65
Bad Thoughts
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Re: The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
I wouldn't say it's a play on them. Rather it's the result of what society expects a "feminist" character to be like.
NuUhura isn't a feminist character. She's just a blackmailing, unprofessional bitch, who is only developed and defined by her 'relationship' with NuSpock.
You're right. I brought the comparisons to other characters into the equation. You, however, raised the issue of nuUhura representing a feminist type, either positive or satirical, and you have struggle to define the character's problems. You seem to be too invested in the notion that nuUhura is a caricature of a feminist. Whether that means the role portrays the true nature of real feminists or people who think they are feminists isn't that compelling. Given that your previous avatar contained the word "bitches," I'm not compelled to believe that you see nuUhura's personality as a defense of true feminism against fake feminism. In the end, the character was nothing more than a writer's cribbed facsimile of a "strong woman."

Kira is a strong and tough female character, who has lived a harsh life and developed a necessary armour to protect herself, but underneath she has great pain and kindness, as well as the capacity of forgiveness and understanding for some of those that occupied her world and oppressed her people. She is probably the best developed individual Trek has had, definitely the one who has shown progressive and consistent growth. She has more character and heart in her left pinky that in NuUhura's entire person.
Don't misunderstand me. I am not in any way comparing Kira to nuUhura. I only mentioned nuUhura because her name was mentioned previously in one of the posts above.

The biggest problem for me, is that writers typically write their version of "strong" female characters as "take no bullshit" from anyone, particularly any male that dares challenge their opinion. They usually show their "strength" by beating up people (usually men), and just being generally bitchy and opinionated.

I'll admit Kira does not fill all those stereotypes like other characters in other shows, and I didn't mean to say that she's a "feminist" stereotype. Rather my complain with Kira is with the actress, which I don't feel was able to play the role as the character required it.

Kira as a character could have been very interesting. Here we have a woman who has suffered greatly with Cardassian oppression, but at the same time is highly religious and spiritual.

I would have loved to see:

1. A realistic take on forgiveness as most religions ask of their believers (love thy enemy)

2. A realistic take on holding a grudge against the Federation, which did not lift a finger to help them when they were being oppressed.

3. Genuine sadness when required. Example: Kira's father dies and she's remorseful that she didn't stay with him but went off on some mission to kill some Cardies. Her reaction was to do the same thing again, go kill some Cardies. Would it have killed her to show some sadness at what just happened?


I think Kira as a character is very interesting, but I don't think Nana Visitor was capable of doing more that phoning in her performance for certain character traits that were needed to properly portray that character.

I'll say that this is not exclusively a Nana Visitor issue. Avery Brooks is incapable of showing anything else than brash, abrasive attitude, which works great when he's dealing with the Dominion, but not so much when he's dealing with his crew.

And I could mention horrible acting in other series also. It's just that Nana Visitor's acting is the one that seems to be defended to death. Go on the Voyager forum and you'll see a spade being called a spade (no one disagrees that Harry, or Chakotay were cardboard cutouts for example)
The actor' shortcoming are perfectly criticizable. I even think that Visitor's contributions to the roll may have been less important that the writers' concepts. Nonetheless, Visitor kept up and consciously worked on the characterization. Kira in DS9's last scenes are clearly not the same person as in her first scenes. Moreover, her progress from the bitter woman who believes that she and her people are being disempowered by Starfleet to the one who commands the station and nurtures its people is easily chartable throughout the series. That would have never happened if Visitor could not keep up with the changes. By contrast, the writers worked around Terry Farrell's weaknesses. They either shut her up (Dax, Equilibrium) or gave her part to better actors (Invasive Procedures, Facets) at the character's critical moments. Sadly, the best Dax was Rene Auberjonois. Dawson had some good moments as Torres, but for most of the series the character just ran hot and cold. Maybe that was just the writers' laziness (it was a different writing staff).

It seems that you want to put the character of Kira into the box: she's supposed to be vulnerable and have PTSD. Neither of those things really hold. I'll even grant that Visitor wasn't great at doing vulnerable in Starship Down (praying over Sisko seemed goofy from an emotional standpoint), but she did well at vulnerable on BSG. The necessity of having PTSD is far fetched. An elderly person freed from a Nazi concentration camp, probably after enduring a death march, had a 60% chance of having PTSD. A younger person in the same condition had a 35%n chance, although the numbers go up as the individual approach his or her retirement. Kira was neither. She was not stuck in a camp all her life. She was active in the resistance--she took control of the situation rather than let herself be trapped in it. Moreover, from what we've been told, the labor camps did not reach the same aura of death that Nazi concentration and extermination camps reached. Even if she had spent all her life in a labor camp, chances are that she would come in well below 35%.

The Kira you want--tough on the outside, troubled on the inside--is every bit a stereotype of a feminist character as nuUhura. It's just another bit of lazy writing. There is no need for Kira to be River Tam.
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Old March 11 2014, 06:51 PM   #66
GalaxyX
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Re: The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!

Bad thoughts, my previous avatars were sort of a running gag on the length of the Longcat.

Here's a link with more info on it so I don't derail the thread too much:

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bitches-dont-know

The original is making fun of the explicit words in rap and hip hop music. My original avatar was working on the pun that "nobody knows the length of the Longcat". Nothing misogynistic was ever meant by it (although you're not the first to misunderstand that).

When I saw nuUhura, my first reaction was "why is she being written as such a cunt?" and I read that it was JJ Abrams wife that suggested she be written this way, as a "take no bullshit" female who holds her own against the males she works with (whatever that's supposed to mean). So JJ Abrams wife apparently sees men as antagonists whom she has to "hold her own against", which is typical of extreme feminist ideas. This is why to me, she seems to be the stereotype of the ideal feminist. I could be wrong.

You're right about Kira, she wouldn't necessarily have any sort of trauma. However, anger is usually a coping mechanism for it. So we know Kira is prone to huge temper tantrums. So either:

A. She is compensating with anger a real trauma of unknown magnitude.
B. She's just ill tempered, and would be prone to bouts of anger so matter what she has gone thru.

I think River Tam is an extreme example. River Tam is suffering from some sort of autism (probably due to the experimentation done to her, which probably damaged her brain). As strong, fast, and agile as she is, she needs constant care from people who care about her, like her brother. I wouldn't say River has PTSD as much as she is suffering a physically caused mental disability. I'll say that Summer Glau did an excellent job portraying that character. She couldn't have been more perfect in that role (one of the reasons I think Firefly is so well regarded, it had very strong actors and actresses)

B'elanna Torres played it pretty well IMO. How would you play what's basically two personality traits that's really one personality? I think she did it the right way, human first, while fighting against that klingon temper which she hated but had no choice to endure. She was a very strong woman who did not have a chip on her shoulder, but rather struggled to fight against her own demons in the desire to be like her peers. When she was split in two, she did an excellent job portraying a fully human woman, and a fully klingon one. That particular episode was shit, but it's always fun watching her take on both personalities.
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Old March 11 2014, 06:55 PM   #67
dub
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Re: The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!

Kinggodzillak wrote: View Post

Love those pics!
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Old March 11 2014, 11:26 PM   #68
JirinPanthosa
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Re: The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!

Where do you get that Kira had PTSD?

She was habituated to violence and grew up knowing only hatred of the Cardassians and being in the position of the abused. But that's not the same as PTSD, that's just being in a very bad emotional place.

At the beginning she did mistrust the Federation. She saw the Federation as another invading force and hated the idea of them being there. She only accepted it because she saw them as a necessity to stake a claim to the wormhole.

It's true that there are some situations that called for more subtle emotions than the actress portrayed, and that's a valid criticism. But it's only a problem in a handful of places, for most of the character's emotional range she brings a lot of life to the character.
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Old March 27 2014, 04:50 AM   #69
dub
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Re: The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!

dub wrote: View Post
My wife and I are considering Kira for our baby due in July. She liked DS9, and she likes that name. I was surprised. I also suggested Nerys for a middle name, but she didn't go for that one. Then she said, "What do you think about Kara?" And I got excited and said, "Kara Thrace! And we could nickname her Starbuck!" She just rolled her eyes at me and said "No. Just Kara."
Update: I think Kara has won out. But whether my wife likes it or not, I'm nicknaming her Starbuck!
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Old March 31 2014, 07:01 PM   #70
Jedi_Master
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Re: The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!

dub wrote: View Post
dub wrote: View Post
My wife and I are considering Kira for our baby due in July. She liked DS9, and she likes that name. I was surprised. I also suggested Nerys for a middle name, but she didn't go for that one. Then she said, "What do you think about Kara?" And I got excited and said, "Kara Thrace! And we could nickname her Starbuck!" She just rolled her eyes at me and said "No. Just Kara."
Update: I think Kara has won out. But whether my wife likes it or not, I'm nicknaming her Starbuck!
Congratulations! I like the name. It is beautiful. And go with Starbuck! I call my son "Goob" after the character in "Meet the Robinsons" My wife hated it at first, but she got over it.
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Old April 2 2014, 04:45 AM   #71
garaks the best
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Re: The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!

I love kira she was awesome and by far the best female star trek character in the franchise.
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Old April 10 2014, 07:50 PM   #72
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Re: The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!

garaks the best wrote: View Post
I love kira she was awesome and by far the best female star trek character in the franchise.
Before I watched the show in it's entirety I didn't care for her character. Since watching the whole show, I've really gone 180 on the character and I also feel that she is Trek's best female character.
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