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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 1 2014, 07:20 PM   #16
Shon T'Hara
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

My theory is the E-D originally was supposed to be a deep-range explorer, pushing the boundaries of the Federation and making first contact with more advanced civilizations, but after the Yamato's destruction, Starfleet reevaluated the whole Galaxy-class concept and decided ships full of civilians shouldn't be boldly going. That explains the change of tone from the early seasons, when the Enterprise seemed to be on the edge of known space, to later years when they were ferrying supplies around, investigating missing ships, and making contact with less advanced civilizations.
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Old April 1 2014, 07:45 PM   #17
Shat Happens
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

^^ that makes sense but it's also a terrible thing to see TNG as. Specially when some people are like me who likes to compare TOS with the lesser series.
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Old April 1 2014, 08:00 PM   #18
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
^^ that makes sense but it's also a terrible thing to see TNG as.
Um... that's the same as much of the TOS ship's mission. TOS is replete with stories about investigating missing ships, ferrying supplies and personnel, and making contact with less advanced civilizations.
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Old April 1 2014, 08:07 PM   #19
MacLeod
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Timo wrote: View Post
TNG is the only show to have used the term "flagship" for Starfleet vessels, and has used it in two distinct ways:

- Picard's E-D is the "Federation Flagship", the showpiece that gets sent to impress newly encountered species.
- Picard's E-D is among the ships that operate as Flagships in commanding starship fleets, although she does so without actually having a flag officer aboard; other ships such as the Gorkon in "Descent" do so with an Admiral aboard.
But could the reason why the Enterprise has been seen to be the flagship in fleets such as in "Redemption" is because it is the Federation Flagship. So whenever the Enterprise is part of fleet if no Flag officer is present command of the fleet automatically falls to the Enterprise Captain.
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Old April 1 2014, 09:15 PM   #20
Armored Saint
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Chain of Command too is based on the fact that the Enterprise-D is the flagship. I see the "flagship" function essentially as a representative one. It's mean having a Captain able to deal with all types of assignments: exploration, science, diplomacy and battle. There's a prestige to serve on the E-D, but that doesn't mean you are one of the best. There's too much personnel transfer for that and it doesn't make sense to put all the best officers on the same ship.

What I find stupid it's NCC-1701 seems to be the only registry number to have been reused in the time. Christopher Pike and James T. Kirk were not the only valuable Captains of Starfleet history. I mean, the Sisko's Saratoga could have been for example the NCC-1887-C.
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Old April 1 2014, 09:46 PM   #21
MacLeod
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

One other thing to consider, the meanings of words change overtime. So today as stated above flagship can refer to the pre-eminant thing. i.e Flagship stoire. Who knows by the 24th century this meaning could have become the primary meaning of the word.
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Old April 1 2014, 09:52 PM   #22
Hanukkah Solo
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
^^ that makes sense but it's also a terrible thing to see TNG as. Specially when some people are like me who likes to compare TOS with the lesser series.
"Lesser series"? Nice.
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Old April 1 2014, 09:59 PM   #23
Timo
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

after the Yamato's destruction, Starfleet reevaluated the whole Galaxy-class concept
...Or, after the encounter at Farpoint, Starfleet reevaluated the whole concept of exploring deep space beyond Deneb, and decided it was safer to stick closer to home after all. Which is why the E-D doesn't do the "where no one has gone before" stuff in the first season, either (except in the episode of that name, and that was by accident).

But could the reason why the Enterprise has been seen to be the flagship in fleets such as in "Redemption" is because it is the Federation Flagship.
Quite possibly. Or then it's just that any Galaxy is a natural fleet kingpin wherever she sails, and there aren't any adventures where a fleet would have to choose between two available Galaxies because a) the camera follows the Enterprise and b) there are very few Galaxies to begin with, and even fewer survive their encounter with the Enterprise!

We have seen other types of starship used as flagship - the Gorkon supposedly was an Excelsior, even if it wasn't perfectly explicit that the ship of that class we saw in the establishing shots of "Descent" actually was the Gorkon.

One wonders what class the unseen flagship in ST:FC was, in a fleet that also included at least one giant Nebula class vessel... Or what sort of a ship the Melbourne in "BoBW" was supposed to be, as she, too, led a fleet featuring Nebula class behemoths. Perhaps it isn't all that unusual for older and/or smaller ship types to lead formations?

What I find stupid it's NCC-1701 seems to be the only registry number to have been reused in the time.
Reusing a registry is a strange way to "honor" a ship anyway. What next, give the next ship down the line the old shuttles of the predecessor?

We do supposedly have the Yamato, NCC-1305, honored the same way...

Timo Saloniemi
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Old April 1 2014, 10:54 PM   #24
Robert Comsol
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Timo wrote: View Post
What I find stupid it's NCC-1701 seems to be the only registry number to have been reused in the time.
Reusing a registry is a strange way to "honor" a ship anyway. What next, give the next ship down the line the old shuttles of the predecessor?

We do supposedly have the Yamato, NCC-1305, honored the same way...
I do think a good rationalization is possible, if we look at some of the accomplishments of the TOS Enterprise humiliating the Romulans:
  • crippled a Romulan Bird of Prey testing a cloaking device and a new weapons system near the Neutral Zone ("Balance of Terror")
  • apparently had further (successful) skirmishes with Romulan ships (Sulu in "The Deadly Years")
  • defeated a Romulan ship near Tau Ceti ("Whom Gods Destroy")
  • escaped Romulan Birds of Prey with the "Corbomite Bluff" ("The Deadly Years")
  • stole Rumulan cloaking device ("The Enterprise Incident")
If Enterprise's name and registry didn't send a strong psychological signal to the Romulans I don't know.
  • Enterprise-C impeded a Romulan ploy attempting to start a Klingon-Federation war and
  • Enterprise-D was the ship establishing contact with the Romulans again in 2364
For the same reason the USS Yamato could have been the hero ship of the Battle of Donatu V.

Of course, by the mid 24th Century the Klingons were the "nice guys", too, so there was no further reason to remind them of the accomplishments of the Yamato.

Bob
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Old April 1 2014, 11:23 PM   #25
Timo
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

I simply think the -A thing was created because the Council wanted Starfleet to give Kirk a second NCC-1701 as a symbolic gesture, but the bureaucrats could not tolerate the idea of two different ships having the exact same registry. The -B then followed because it's tradition, and you don't challenge tradition...

It's not the ship that's being honored, it's Kirk, the first time around.

(Wouldn't explain NCC-1305-E, though, unless Captain Okita got given a replica of his old starship, too.)

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Old April 2 2014, 03:37 AM   #26
Shon T'Hara
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
For the same reason the USS Yamato could have been the hero ship of the Battle of Donatu
No need to suppose that when we know the original Yamato saved the Earth on mutliple occasions, such as when the Gamilons bombarded the Earth with radioactive meteors, or when the Comet Empire invaded the Milky Way.
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Old April 2 2014, 04:14 AM   #27
Christopher
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

And then there was the time the Yamato Monsters saved Japan from Godzilla...
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Old April 2 2014, 04:45 AM   #28
Lance
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Christopher wrote: View Post
The term "flagship" strictly speaking, should mean either the ship from which an admiral commands or the lead ship in a task force or armada. But because most ST writers are laypeople rather than naval veterans, they tend to use "flagship" more in its vernacular sense of the most prominent or special member of a group, like how Voyager was the flagship show of the UPN network, say. So the idea is that the Enterprise is the jewel of the fleet, the most advanced and prestigious ship with the best and brightest crew.

Which I happen to think is a lousy idea, a sort of elitism that doesn't seem worthy of the Federation. Also, doesn't it make more sense to distribute your best personnel throughout the fleet instead of letting one ship hog them all?
Not to mention that if the Enterprise-D went down in battle, then the fleet's so-called "best and brightest" would all go down with it.

But the problem is that the attitudes of fandom have been transposed onto the characters in-universe. We care about the Enterprise the most because it's the ship the series focuses on, so that's led to it being portrayed as the most important ship in-universe too. Gene Roddenberry probably started this with his TMP novelization, in which he claimed the E was special because it was the only ship to return home from a 5-year mission with both ship and crew essentially intact.
Oh definitely. One of my favourite things about TOS was how Enterprise was 'just another ship', it wasn't seen (in universe) as being anything more special than any other. But as you say, Roddenberry's 'fetishization' of the Enterprise in-verse in his novel of TMP seemed to open the floodgates towards her being seen as a 'special' ship, and her crew as 'living legends'. IMO it actually makes them less interesting.
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Old April 2 2014, 12:41 PM   #29
Robert Comsol
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Timo wrote: View Post
It's not the ship that's being honored, it's Kirk, the first time around.
Now we're ditched. Do we prefer an Enterprise-centric vision for Star Trek or a Kirk-centric one? (Personally, I go with the first since I've heard only good things about either Captain April or Pike)

Timo wrote: View Post
Wouldn't explain NCC-1305-E, though, unless Captain Okita got given a replica of his old starship, too.
In my world, the prefix "13" would indicate a Baton Rouge Class starship, possibly suceeded by a sister ship of the TOS Enterprise, NCC-1305(-B).

Here is my try to rationalize the registry inconsistency in TNG:

WORF: Captain, there's another vessel approaching in sector zero nine one, mark two six.
PICARD: On screen. Magnify.
RIKER: It's a Federation ship. NCC 1305-E. It's the Yamato, our sister ship.
WESLEY: The Yamato's nowhere near this quadrant.
(WORF is growling.
RIKER: Lieutenant, what's your problem?
WORF: Family history. One of my ancestors served aboard a Klingon ship destroyed by the original Yamato in this war.
RIKER: Their war, not yours!
PICARD: Number One? (getting close to Riker) I suggest that we henceforth exclusively use the other NCC registry.)


Bob

P.S.

Worf's (never revealed) later reaction to the destruction of the Yamato in "Contagion"



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Last edited by Robert Comsol; April 2 2014 at 12:54 PM.
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Old April 2 2014, 02:06 PM   #30
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Lance wrote: View Post
Oh definitely. One of my favourite things about TOS was how Enterprise was 'just another ship', it wasn't seen (in universe) as being anything more special than any other. But as you say, Roddenberry's 'fetishization' of the Enterprise in-verse in his novel of TMP seemed to open the floodgates towards her being seen as a 'special' ship, and her crew as 'living legends'. IMO it actually makes them less interesting.
In Roddenberry's defense, his conceit in the TMP novel's prologue was that he assumed the role of a 23rd-century drama producer who had made Star Trek as a dramatization of the real adventures of Kirk and his crew -- taking some admitted dramatic license with many of the details. So he needed a justification for why it was the Enterprise rather than some other ship that got selected for such an adaptation.
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