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Old March 28 2014, 03:02 AM   #31
propita
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

Seven of Five wrote: View Post
Endgame bugged me more with a lack of Temporal Policing. Are Starfleet less bothered with timeline hijinks if it helps them into a more powerful position?
That’s my viewpoint! They picked the timeline where THEY are in charge of time travel--and make sure that no other timeline develops where they are not in charge.

Add in that StarFleet was policing Earth with the shape shifters in DS9, and you got one helluva militarized society.
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Old March 28 2014, 03:08 AM   #32
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

Borg Technology was used to travel in time within this story which means that the Borg Time Police were meant to stop her... Unfortunately under some renderings of the facts (Novels? What novels?) in these final episodes, Janeway destroyed all the Borg entirely, and they are now extinct and there are no more Borg Time Police anymore in the future to stop her.
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Old March 28 2014, 06:08 PM   #33
Isolinear
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

Drone wrote: View Post
Isolinear wrote: View Post

The episode starts in drydock with Seven trying to locate the Weapon. She finds it, but it is "out of phase" because it is the wrong timeframe. She communicates the location (Deck 4, Section 39) to Braxton. Then she's killed during transport to the Future. I will call her Seven-1.

Braxton has to recruit her again from the Present. We see Seven in the hour leading up to Voyager's destruction. There are temporal distortions. Seven and B'Elanna locate the weapon. Some time after that, Seven is beamed to the Future. I will call her Seven-2.

NOW WAIT A MINUTE!!!!! If Present-Seven already knows the location of the weapon, why did the previous Seven (Seven-1) try to locate it in the first place?

How do we know when Seven-1 was recruited? If that happened before the fateful hour, then obviously she would have no idea about the weapon or its location. This might beg the question as to why Braxton didn't shanghai Seven the first time as close to Voyager's sendoff as possible to glean any possible information that they had been able to develop after detecting the advance effects of the weapon's activation.
How could the previous Sevens have been recruited before Seven-1? You can't pull her from the timeline at 1:15, when you've pulled her out already previously at 1:10. She wouldn't be there anymore.
However, you can pull her out from 1:05, then the next one at 1:00, then 0:55 and so on.

Therefore the previous Sevens must have been later incarnations who also knew about the weapons' location!

Logic. Flawless Logic.
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Old March 28 2014, 09:08 PM   #34
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

By the logic of the moral protesters here, if somebugger through timetravel figures out that they are going to be murdered on a specific date and time by a specific person, and they request to be put in protective custody by the Time Police, the Time Police will not do it, because it's immoral to protect people who are not yet in danger.
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Old March 29 2014, 12:04 AM   #35
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

Which "Time Police"?

I've been contemplating writing a fanfic where Silverberg's Time Couriers, Anderson's Time Patrol, and Star Trek's DTI all run into each other. Considering Anderson's Time Patrol is actually run by the Danellians (the next version of humanity, over a million years in the future from 20th century reckoning), that brand of "time police" would win out.

Greg Cox wrote a novel related to Silverberg's Up the Line, btw. I haven't read it yet, though - been saving it for a treat.
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Old March 29 2014, 05:25 AM   #36
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

How could the previous Sevens have been recruited before Seven-1? You can't pull her from the timeline at 1:15, when you've pulled her out already previously at 1:10. She wouldn't be there anymore.
However, you can pull her out from 1:05, then the next one at 1:00, then 0:55 and so on.

Therefore the previous Sevens must have been later incarnations who also knew about the weapons' location!

Logic. Flawless Logic.

Let me be sure I was clear. When I used the term Seven-1, it was in the same sense that I think you did in the OP. That is the version of Seven witnessed in the opening of the episode and not either of the two iterations that preceeded her efforts, from Relativity's perspective. My point was to simply question the timeframe of the former's extraction and not to compare it in any way with that experienced by the latter ones.


IIRC, there was no mention or even clue as to when any of these Sevens were recruited as obviously only the circumstance of the final version was directly shown on screen. As to the argument you posited in your response, I suppose it makes sense if the events are taken to occur in a linear construct in this jungle jim rendering of a time manipulation story. But consider this. The Seven that was the last one that Braxton brought into play, was taken bare seconds before Voyager's destruction. Are you suggesting that Relativity had the chops to more finely tune its calculations so that Seven's predecessors left the ship at perhaps 2 seconds, 1, or even milliseconds before the explosion? I don't see the evidence that their grasp on the mechanics involved was so precise.


Would ping pong playing Seven, who encountered her doppelganger in the Mess Hall simply have ceased to exist at the same instant that the latter had been removed from the ship? NO. I think a plausible explanation, if one can be offered, is that the action of the recruitment of each Seven was wiped clean, reset if you will, by virtue of their failure in preventing Voyager being obliterated at the moment that that actually occurred in each instance, and would have no impact on the continuing integrity of Seven's presence on Present Voyager. This scenario would only be altered, as it was at the end, by a successful completion of the mission, which then necessitated something having to be done that was consequential to Voyager Seven, her re-integration with Relativity Seven as mentioned by Ducane.
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Old March 29 2014, 05:39 AM   #37
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

propita wrote: View Post
They picked the timeline where THEY are in charge of time travel--and make sure that no other timeline develops where they are not in charge.
Of course. Why shouldn't they?

Somebody has to be in charge of time travel, after all, since it is so uniquely dangerous. It would be foolish to just let anybody run around loose with temporal technology. They could literally destroy everything. So it's logical to place some kind of controls on it.
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Old April 1 2014, 02:09 AM   #38
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

There were too many errors in this episode but the main one was the writing.
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Old April 1 2014, 01:34 PM   #39
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
propita wrote: View Post
They picked the timeline where THEY are in charge of time travel--and make sure that no other timeline develops where they are not in charge.
Of course. Why shouldn't they?
Time travel morals. What gives them the right to decide that their timeline is the absolute right one? Someone in the farer future might make that decision as well, so there are two factions fighting over the "correct" timeline. Good luck taking that issue to the time travel court, lol.

There were also many episodes where there were natural causes for timeline changes. The prophets changed the timeline as well. So that alone makes the idea of "being in charge of time travel" pretty ridiculous.


The greatest timeline fuckup is VOY: Endgame and then the Destiny novel trilogy. The Destiny trilogy gives the time cops every reason to annhilate Admiral Janeway from her entire existence. She selfishly saved 20-30 lives and skipped a few years of traveling home, for the price of BILLIONS of dead Federation citizens. But the cops don't show up.
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Old April 1 2014, 01:46 PM   #40
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
propita wrote: View Post
They picked the timeline where THEY are in charge of time travel--and make sure that no other timeline develops where they are not in charge.
Of course. Why shouldn't they?
Time travel morals. What gives them the right to decide that their timeline is the absolute right one? Someone in the farer future might make that decision as well, so there are two factions fighting over the "correct" timeline.
Then let them fight.

Like I said: Somebody has to be in charge of time travel. You can't just let anyone use it. All of creation could be destroyed. There has to be order, stability to the process.
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Old April 1 2014, 01:50 PM   #41
JarodRussell
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Like I said: Somebody has to be in charge of time travel.
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
There were also many episodes where there were natural causes for timeline changes. The prophets changed the timeline as well. So that alone makes the idea of "being in charge of time travel" pretty ridiculous.
And the Q I forgot.

Actually, the Q are already in charge to make sure "all of creation" isn't destroyed. So any human attempt to "control" the timeline can just be snapped away anyway.

I think there's even a novel about that, where Q takes Picard on a ride to stop the universe from being just ended by a greater power.
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Old April 1 2014, 02:34 PM   #42
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

Isn't this episode a dramatization of the double-slit experiment, wherein the anticipation of a specific result produces the action that creates said result? In this case, Braxton's crime is anticipating Janeway getting her comeuppance.

Last edited by Bad Thoughts; April 1 2014 at 05:37 PM.
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Old April 1 2014, 04:33 PM   #43
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

JarodRussell wrote: View Post

And the Q I forgot.

Actually, the Q are already in charge to make sure "all of creation" isn't destroyed. So any human attempt to "control" the timeline can just be snapped away anyway.

I think there's even a novel about that, where Q takes Picard on a ride to stop the universe from being just ended by a greater power.
Yes. The Novel "I, Q."
God decides not to end the Multiverse because Q made "her" laugh. It also includes a hilarious scene where Q doesn't understand the difference between a queuing line and a "Q" line.
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Old April 1 2014, 05:28 PM   #44
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Relativity makes no sense

Then again, the TIC aren't so much acting as "time police" in this episode as they are preventing one specific disaster - the destruction of Voyager. We don't really know what their attitude is towards time in general. Maybe they are mostly reactive, like the Department of Temporal Investigations.

And even if you think that the 29th-century TIC is not realistic, I'm hoping more people agree that the DTI is. If you don't think the TIC is needed, the DTI at least must be.
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