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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 27 2014, 02:03 AM   #31
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

I do agree about the inconsistent destiny of Benjamin Sisko.

In Reckoning, Sisko is clearly told that he has fulfilled his destiny by allowing the final battle to take place on DS9. Winn interrupts the final battle, and now nevermind, Sisko's destiny was to imprison Dukat all along.

I don't think the writers decided why Sisko was special until Tears of the Prophets, but they should have consulted their own notes a bit more to retain consistency.
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Old March 27 2014, 02:31 AM   #32
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

Isolinear wrote: View Post
Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
Isolinear wrote: View Post
- No Dax personality present in Ezri, only Dax memories.
Based on Facets, there isn't much of Curzon's personality in Jadzia (just the memory of how to do a few Klingon-y things).
I wasn't talking about Jadzia, I was talking about Dax. In "Invasive Procedures" Verad's personality became "wise beyond his years" compared to his old self after he received the Dax-symbiont. Just like (Season1)-Jadzia.
I didn't see any of that in Ezri. She remained this slighty confused girl.
My point was that there really wasn't much point looking for the personality of the past hosts in Dax beyond carrying over interests, hobbies and expertises. In Facets, Curzon's vivacity was put on display (Sisko confirms it), which we never saw in Jadzia Dax. Why should it have been different with Ezri?

(And yes, Ezri did get some of her past hosts' engineering skills. See Siege of Ar-558.)
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Old March 27 2014, 03:24 AM   #33
Enterprise1701
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

I disliked Ziyal's death. She should have appeared for more seasons. Plus, Damar in the end turned out to be a somewhat good guy. What's the fun in having a heroic character kill another heroic character?
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Old March 27 2014, 09:48 PM   #34
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

Damar was never really that heroic. He started the rebellion for the same reason he killed Ziyal. He's a Cardassian loyalist. He killed Ziyal because in his eyes she was a traitor and that's what happens to traitors. He started the rebellion because the Dominion had 'Altered the deal', and he didn't want them to alter it any further. But Ziyal's death did seem a little contrived to me the way it happened.

I do think we saw some personality traits of past hosts in Ezri. Maybe not at the beginning but later on we saw some of Jadzia's sense of humor and poise in expressing herself.
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Old March 27 2014, 10:16 PM   #35
Drusilla
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Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

Mr Pointy Ears wrote: View Post
of course ezri dax
x2. She's a babbling, simpering, giggling, overgrown twelve year old with no discernable skills, and yet somehow, she made it through the Academy and gets assigned to the most critical piece of Federation property in the Alpha Quadrant. I thought she was a truly idiotic addition to the cast.
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Old March 28 2014, 12:36 PM   #36
doctorfoto
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

"The wedding is off!"

All three of DS9's engagements (four, if you include the O'Briens in Data's Day) get cancelled at some point before the wedding.
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Old March 28 2014, 03:12 PM   #37
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

Drusilla wrote: View Post
Mr Pointy Ears wrote: View Post
of course ezri dax
x2. She's a babbling, simpering, giggling, overgrown twelve year old with no discernable skills, and yet somehow, she made it through the Academy and gets assigned to the most critical piece of Federation property in the Alpha Quadrant. I thought she was a truly idiotic addition to the cast.
Ezri Dax: acted as communications officer for the Defiant at the Battle of Chintoka and the Battle of Cardassia. Diffused mines and fought at Battle of Ar-558. Hates raktagino. Slept with Worf.

Diana Troi: Crashed Enterprise into Veridian III. Crashed Enterprise into Scimitar. Loves chocolate. Slept with Worf.

I'd say Ezri is at least as good (if not better) than the prototype SF counselor.
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Old March 28 2014, 05:11 PM   #38
mendelin
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Odo can transform himself into the spitting image of a rat, but darned if he can't get a human face quite right. But that's okay, because his people have the same problem -- except when they don't.
"To become a thing is to know a thing. To assume its form is to begin to understand its existence." - the Female Changeling to Odo

Odo can't get a human face quite right, because he hadn't full understanding of humans. The others just imitates Odo's face to be closer to him.

Changelings from the Great Link have no problems with human appearance because they already developed their "understanding" of humans.

I guess, it wasn't an intended effect. Odo's face was unfinished to make his appearence more "alien". But his inability to precisely imitate humans has deep philosophical subtext.
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Old March 28 2014, 06:21 PM   #39
Isolinear
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

mendelin wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Odo can transform himself into the spitting image of a rat, but darned if he can't get a human face quite right. But that's okay, because his people have the same problem -- except when they don't.
"To become a thing is to know a thing. To assume its form is to begin to understand its existence." - the Female Changeling to Odo

Odo can't get a human face quite right, because he hadn't full understanding of humans. The others just imitates Odo's face to be closer to him.
Maybe, but then why does the female changeling have that same shapeless Odo-face when she's alone with the Jem'Hadar, Cardassians and Breen?
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Old March 28 2014, 06:25 PM   #40
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

Isolinear wrote: View Post
mendelin wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Odo can transform himself into the spitting image of a rat, but darned if he can't get a human face quite right. But that's okay, because his people have the same problem -- except when they don't.
"To become a thing is to know a thing. To assume its form is to begin to understand its existence." - the Female Changeling to Odo

Odo can't get a human face quite right, because he hadn't full understanding of humans. The others just imitates Odo's face to be closer to him.
Maybe, but then why does the female changeling have that same shapeless Odo-face when she's alone with the Jem'Hadar, Cardassians and Breen?
Probably to remind the audience who and what she is.

For the record: Odo will get good at faces with practice, if Children of Time is to be believed.
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Old March 28 2014, 06:32 PM   #41
Isolinear
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
Isolinear wrote: View Post
Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
Based on Facets, there isn't much of Curzon's personality in Jadzia (just the memory of how to do a few Klingon-y things).
I wasn't talking about Jadzia, I was talking about Dax. In "Invasive Procedures" Verad's personality became "wise beyond his years" compared to his old self after he received the Dax-symbiont. Just like (Season1)-Jadzia.
I didn't see any of that in Ezri. She remained this slighty confused girl.
My point was that there really wasn't much point looking for the personality of the past hosts in Dax beyond carrying over interests, hobbies and expertises. In Facets, Curzon's vivacity was put on display (Sisko confirms it), which we never saw in Jadzia Dax.
Again, I am not talking about the previous HOSTS, I'm talking about the SYMBIONT. Nothing in Ezri DAX's personality made me think she(it) had hundreds of years of experience.

And I'm not sure we never saw Curzon's vivacity in Jadzia Dax. She liked to party allright.

@Finn: Yes Ezri's said to be confused because she wasn't trained. But Verad wasn't either, and still, he gained a lot of confidence.
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Old March 28 2014, 06:48 PM   #42
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

Isolinear wrote: View Post
Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
Isolinear wrote: View Post
I wasn't talking about Jadzia, I was talking about Dax. In "Invasive Procedures" Verad's personality became "wise beyond his years" compared to his old self after he received the Dax-symbiont. Just like (Season1)-Jadzia.
I didn't see any of that in Ezri. She remained this slighty confused girl.
My point was that there really wasn't much point looking for the personality of the past hosts in Dax beyond carrying over interests, hobbies and expertises. In Facets, Curzon's vivacity was put on display (Sisko confirms it), which we never saw in Jadzia Dax.
Again, I am not talking about the previous HOSTS, I'm talking about the SYMBIONT. Nothing in Ezri DAX's personality made me think she(it) had hundreds of years of experience.

And I'm not sure we never saw Curzon's vivacity in Jadzia Dax. She liked to party allright.
Doing the Where The Wild Things Are dance with Nog is not solid evidence that Jadzia has fun like Curzon. She takes an interest in Tongo; so does O'Brien. She likes Klingons; so does Sisko. Like I said, we see just what Curzon was supposed to be like in Rene Auberjonois' performance, little of which is reflected Jadzia Dax. Only the interest in whom Sisko is dating really seems similar. But if anyone resembled Curzon Dax, it was probably Verad Dax. And for the sake of argument, we don't see any Joran in Ezri or Jadzia either, though we might see some of Tobin in Ezri.

Ultimately, I think that Sisko put it correctly in the Dax episode: this is an entirely new person.
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Old March 28 2014, 07:10 PM   #43
mendelin
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
Isolinear wrote: View Post
mendelin wrote: View Post

"To become a thing is to know a thing. To assume its form is to begin to understand its existence." - the Female Changeling to Odo

Odo can't get a human face quite right, because he hadn't full understanding of humans. The others just imitates Odo's face to be closer to him.
Maybe, but then why does the female changeling have that same shapeless Odo-face when she's alone with the Jem'Hadar, Cardassians and Breen?
Probably to remind the audience who and what she is.

For the record: Odo will get good at faces with practice, if Children of Time is to be believed.
The most interesting question is why Female Changeling has chosen female appearance. I guess, her choice is somehow connected to both Odo and Kira. May be she has mixed Kira's appearence (female body) and Odo's appearence (shapeless face).

Yes, Odo will get better at faces with practice and time among humans.
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Old March 28 2014, 08:34 PM   #44
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

^Although he imitated a different species, Laas had a similarly stiff, unarticulated visage. Perhaps the shapeshifters prefer to go only half way when not needing to look entirely humanoid--the shapeshifter version of slouching, if you would.
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Old March 30 2014, 01:31 PM   #45
Drusilla
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Re: Things you thought were stupid on ds9.

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
Diana Troi: Crashed Enterprise into Veridian III. Crashed Enterprise into Scimitar. Loves chocolate. Slept with Worf.

I'd say Ezri is at least as good (if not better) than the prototype SF counselor.
If this was a thread called "things you thought were stupid on TNG", Deanna Troi would probably be on my list. Then again, as the series went on, Troi got a lot better. Ezri only had one season to be a pathetic idiot... no room for improvement.
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