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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old March 27 2014, 09:44 PM   #76
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Well, the graphics are sufficiently visible on Blu-Ray to make it to Memory Alpha.
And the curtains of a stage are visible to the audience in the theater. That doesn't mean they're meant to be taken literally as part of the fictional world the story takes place in. They're just part of the decoration.

Movies aren't meant to be watched in freeze-frame. They're meant to be experienced viscerally in real time. Set decorations are just background texture whose purpose is to contribute to the impressions you get while watching the film live. If you later review it frame-by-frame, that's not part of the original experience that the decorations were created to serve. It's a separate exercise in analysis, tantamount to going backstage after a play and studying the backdrops and rigging.
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Old March 27 2014, 10:11 PM   #77
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
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I dislike how the background graphics of Star Trek Into Darkness say that the (new) Vulcan state based out of New Vulcan in AR 2259 is the "Confederacy of Surak". Surak was only one person in all of Vulcan history! Where's the logic in naming a state after only one person? One person isn't responsible for the entirety of a civilization no matter how important they were. His name isn't even part of the homeworld's name! Not even Klingons call themselves something like "Imperial Kahless State".
I agree that it's silly, but I can't say I can bring myself to care overmuch. It's just an illegible graphic. I don't consider it any more canonical than I do the giant hamster in a wheel powering the Enterprise-D on their Master Systems Display in engineering. (Though I think they following the precedent set by 2003's Star Trek: Star Charts, which also established the Vulcan state as "the Confederacy of Surak." Did Geoffrey Mandel work on the Into Darkness graphics?)

I do, however, have a thought on those graphics that may blur into story idea territory:

Well, the graphics are sufficiently visible on Blu-Ray to make it to Memory Alpha.
Pfffft. Memory Alpha accepts every damn thing they can read on a Blu-Ray with a magnifying glass.

For the story idea you suggested, I suppose it's plausible but I don't think the film producers have any concern for the novels or lesser known things like that from Star Trek.
Actually, Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman have talked about how they really enjoyed a lot of Trek novels, including our own Christopher's Ex Machina.

Anyway, the point was to say that it fits, not that it's intentional.
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Old March 27 2014, 10:18 PM   #78
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Re: Members of the Federation.

We all know what kind of a planet Risa is, but am I the only one who thinks "Risian Hedony" is just about the silliest name for a planetary government that Trek has had?
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Old March 27 2014, 10:19 PM   #79
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
We all know what kind of a planet Risa is, but am I the only one who thinks "Risian Hedony" is just about the silliest name for a planetary government that Trek has had?
I want to know what the Pakled state is called.
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Old March 27 2014, 10:34 PM   #80
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Re: Members of the Federation.

^ Confusion?

srsly though: "Hedony" is, IMHO, a stupid name for a government. Hedonism is the pursuit of pleasure, we all know it. But that's not what a government is for. I realize the writers (whoever thought that up) were trying to be cute, but come on.
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Old March 27 2014, 10:44 PM   #81
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Confusion?

srsly though: "Hedony" is, IMHO, a stupid name for a government. Hedonism is the pursuit of pleasure, we all know it. But that's not what a government is for. I realize the writers (whoever thought that up) were trying to be cute, but come on.
I agree that taken as a description of a government it's rather stupid - as you say, governments are not about pleasure, and in isolation there's no way a polity would end up with such a name - but given Risa's long-standing dependence on outworld tourism, I think it makes sense as a form of advertising. Risa completely reshaped itself (almost literally given the planet's artificial climate controls) into a world that played upon a reputation for free sexuality, erotic hospitality and other steamy things ending in "ity" (except virginity...). Given that, I can see them adopting the name "Hedony" as part of their efforts to promote the idea that their world is your number-one holiday destination. In a sense, we could argue that the role of the Risian government is to encourage pursuit of pleasure - alien tourists' pleasure, not their own. And that's because the planet's economy and society have become so dependent on the "pleasure planet" angle that they have to stay competitive and perfect or it's over for them.

But then, I have an obsessive urge to make things fit and justify them where I can
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Old March 28 2014, 12:38 AM   #82
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Re: Members of the Federation.

I suspect they fell prey to the B5 syndrome: running out of names for governments, so they just started casting at straws for names they haven't used yet.

And by that I mean: On B5, all five major governments had to have different names of course. Some of them made a form of sense: Earth ALLIANCE. Centauri REPUBLIC. Some just sounded kind of weird: Narn REGIME. And some made no sense at all: Minbari FEDERATION (federation? Really? In a government with nothing but Minbari?), Vorlon EMPIRE (that makes even less sense...what is it about the Vorlons that qualifies as an empire? ).

As for Risa: Like I said, of course everyone KNOWS that Risa is a pleasure planet. But that is Risa's industry, not its government - they shouldn't have to advertise that they're a pleasure planet, because everybody already knows they are one. It's not as if it's a secret, after all.

As for what to call their planetary state, they could have come up with more realistic and non-threatening words to use, like 'Association' or something like that. Calling their government a 'Hedony' just makes it sound like some 70's porn flick. Risans don't spend literally every waking moment having sex, do they? (I mean, it's not like they're Deltans... )
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Old March 28 2014, 01:05 AM   #83
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I suspect they fell prey to the B5 syndrome: running out of names for governments, so they just started casting at straws for names they haven't used yet.

And by that I mean: On B5, all five major governments had to have different names of course.
Not just the major ones! Among the League nations we have:

An Accordance
An Autocracy
A 'Civility'
A Commonwealth
A Confederacy
A Conglomerate
A Freehold
A Gerontocracy
An 'Intelligence'
A Matriarchate
A Republic
A Syndicracy
A Theocracy

I think they must have a list, and each government name can only be claimed by one nation, and new arrivals have to settle for whatever's left .
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Old March 28 2014, 01:19 AM   #84
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
We all know what kind of a planet Risa is, but am I the only one who thinks "Risian Hedony" is just about the silliest name for a planetary government that Trek has had?
It's amusing, I'll grant that. I think what you should say, though is "planetary state" not "planetary government".
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Old March 28 2014, 01:24 AM   #85
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Re: Members of the Federation.

^ What's the diff?
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Old March 28 2014, 02:14 AM   #86
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ What's the diff?
The state is the legal entity which possesses sovereignty; territory; a legal monopoly on the use of force within that territory. The government is the institution that runs the state. Governments come and go, but the state still exists even if a government falls.

Think of it as the difference between a car and the engine (or, if you prefer, a starship and a warp core). The state is the car; the government is the engine. The engine might get swapped out, but the car remains.
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Old March 28 2014, 04:03 AM   #87
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Sci wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ What's the diff?
The state is the legal entity which possesses sovereignty; territory; a legal monopoly on the use of force within that territory. The government is the institution that runs the state. Governments come and go, but the state still exists even if a government falls.

Think of it as the difference between a car and the engine (or, if you prefer, a starship and a warp core). The state is the car; the government is the engine. The engine might get swapped out, but the car remains.
Yup. This doesn't exactly match what I meant, but for example, Scotland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland (which in modern day is not "Commonwealth of Scotland" or "Sub-Republic of Scotland" or anything like that) has an executive branch officially called the "Scottish Government" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Government. But suppose it did have a generic "Republic of..." state name, then for the purpose of this thread you'd have to correctly say "the Scottish state not the Scottish government is the Republic of Scotland". If you said "the Scottish government is the Republic of Scotland", then you would confuse people on whether you mean the executive branch or the country.
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Old March 28 2014, 05:54 AM   #88
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
And some made no sense at all: Minbari FEDERATION (federation? Really? In a government with nothing but Minbari?)
Well, we have federations here on Earth with nothing but humans. It just implies that several individual Minbari states joined together to form a central government. Or if you prefer, maybe they use that name to represent a federation between the Warrior, Religious and Worker castes.
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Old March 28 2014, 09:13 AM   #89
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
And some made no sense at all: Minbari FEDERATION (federation? Really? In a government with nothing but Minbari?)
Well, we have federations here on Earth with nothing but humans. It just implies that several individual Minbari states joined together to form a central government. Or if you prefer, maybe they use that name to represent a federation between the Warrior, Religious and Worker castes.
Some of the background and RPG material justifies it like this; the various clans were independent nations often in conflict, some theocracies, some militant states, many others subjects of the first two; Valen solidified the three caste system by raising the worker clans to (supposed) equal standing and assigning nations to one of the camps. Mostly a convenient means of organizing them all during the war for survival against the Shadows.

And as for the Vorlons, while I think Mr. Laser Beam is almost certainly right - it was just a case of pulling various names out of the air, regardless of whether it really made sense - we could make a case that it's a form of subtle foreshadowing? In that, the Vorlons call themselves an empire because in their mind they've claimed responsibility and authority over the younger nations around them? People looking at the Vorlons might think "where's the subject populations?" My dear observer, you're part of one, you just don't know it. They're a hegemonic empire, not a territorial empire.
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Old March 28 2014, 12:08 PM   #90
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Me, too, would be interested in what the Pakled and Voth states are called.

As an addition to the list of members:
* Dremans: Drema IV has been a Federation protectorate since 2368. (SCE: Progress)
* Xanno: immigrant species from the Delta Quadrant; adopted homeworld New Xannon admitted in 2229 (TOS: The Delta Anomaly)
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