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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old March 23 2014, 09:45 PM   #736
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

I haven't read read the comics in question but as a general rule, I agree with Therein here. Trying to analyze that stuff in Trek just seems to lead to even more confusion.
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Old March 24 2014, 03:50 AM   #737
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

^^That logic might hold in the previous Treks where the stardates generally are random numbers (despite the 24th century's attempt to try to add consistency to them). But since the stardates in the Abramsverse are basically just the Earth calendar year, it does make that sort of thing stick out a bit more.
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Old March 24 2014, 08:54 AM   #738
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
^^That logic might hold in the previous Treks where the stardates generally are random numbers (despite the 24th century's attempt to try to add consistency to them). But since the stardates in the Abramsverse are basically just the Earth calendar year, it does make that sort of thing stick out a bit more.
Which is an odd decision in itself. You can just visualise some money man in a office: "What's the crazy numbers? Change 'em so everybody can understand." It does seem like a shame when some of the innovation of the sixties show gets stomped on by modern ignorance.

Although it would not be hard to have a Trek calendar in the cloud upon which the writers could add each mission on a date, I think we'd probably realise that the realistically most of the time the ship would just be travelling in between star systems.
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Old March 24 2014, 10:24 AM   #739
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Pauln6 wrote: View Post

Although it would not be hard to have a Trek calendar in the cloud upon which the writers could add each mission on a date, I think we'd probably realise that the realistically most of the time the ship would just be travelling in between star systems.
At least the 24th century stardates can be determined easily with the Stardate Calculator. The 23rd century ones, however, most likely don't make any sense whatsoever.
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Old March 24 2014, 03:10 PM   #740
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Markonian wrote: View Post
At least the 24th century stardates can be determined easily with the Stardate Calculate.
Except that what date information we can extract from actual onscreen evidence doesn't actually correspond to what that calculator's stardates suggest -- for instance, the stardate of the First Contact Day celebration according to VGR. No matter how much we try to pretend there's a consistent pattern to any given stardate system, there really isn't. Even the new movie stardates don't quite add up -- it's generally accepted that Kirk was born on March 22 (same as Shatner), and was maybe born just a week or two early in the Abramsverse (since he was born on the ship instead of on Earth), but the cited stardate was 2233.04, which by the alleged Abramsverse scheme would be January 4, 2233.
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Old March 24 2014, 11:05 PM   #741
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

A lot of things in Star Trek are "generally accepted" that aren't remotely true.
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Old March 25 2014, 06:36 PM   #742
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Stevil2001 wrote: View Post
A lot of things in Star Trek are "generally accepted" that aren't remotely true.
I generally accept that.
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Old March 25 2014, 10:35 PM   #743
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Well here's what I've gathered about alternate reality dates

Star Trek 2009 prologue 2233.04
Star Trek: Nero #1 to #4 various points from 2233 to 2258
Star Trek 2009 other early scenes various points from 2233 to 2255
Star Trek 2009 main story 2258.42 or 2258.44 (Kirk couldn't remember exactly)
#1 2258.2...5... .5...6...? (Scotty couldn't remember exactly)
#2 1313.1 (makes no sense)
#3 "The Galileo Seven, Part 1" 2821.5 to 2823.3 (makes no sense)
#4 "The Galileo Seven, Part 2" no stardate given
#5 "Operation - Annihilate!, Part 1" main story no stardate given; beginning flashback is set after the Kirk's car theft scene in Star Trek 2009
#6 "Operation - Annihilate!, Part 2" no stardate given
#7 "Vulcan's Vengeance, Part 1" no stardate given however the issue has the Enterprise leaving Starbase 10 which is what they were heading at the end of the previous issue
#8 "Vulcan's Vengeance, Part 2" no stardate given
#9 "The Return of the Archons, Part 1" 2258.241; beginning flashback is "18 months ago" after Sulu has been given his assignment to the Enterprise
#10 "The Return of the Archons, Part 2" no stardate given
presumably this is the divide between 2258 and 2259
#11 "The Truth About Tribbles, Part 1" main story 2259.55; beginning flashback to the Kirk and Spock Prime meet Scotty scene in Star Trek 2009
#12 "The Truth About Tribbles, Part 2" no stardate given
#13 "The Redshirt's Tale" frame story 2259.23; Hendorff says thanks to his parents for "the Christmas vid" and "sorry it's taken this long to get back to you".
#14 unnamed story about Keenser no stardate given for frame story; main story begins in 2230 on Royla and continues to Star Trek 2009
#15 "Mirrored, Part 1" 2258.56 note however that the issue is apparently just a story that Scotty tells
#16 "Mirrored, Part 2" no stardate given
#17 "Bones" frame story 2258.247; main story goes through McCoy's early life to Star Trek 2009
#18 "The Voice of a Falling Star" set entirely before Star Trek 2009; begins with Uhura in class with Spock; "several months later" depicts Spock and Uhura's first mind meld to Uhura's childhood; no stardate given
#19 "Scotty" set at various points in Scotty's life from 2231 to "Delta Vega" just before Star Trek 2009
#20 "Red Level Down" set during Sulu and Chekov's academy years; concludes as the Enterprise departs Earth for Vulcan in Star Trek 2009
Star Trek: Countdown to Darkness no stardates given; flashback to circa 2239. Since the Enterprise was on a scheduled survey of Phaedus IV, I place CtD before the video game since in the video game the Enterprise heads to Helios Station on a distress call but both works end with Admiral Pike ordering the Enterprise to Nibiru. I assume that the Enterprise was en route to Nibiru from Phaedus IV, diverted to Helios Station, and then resumed course to Nibiru, but I guess this is up to interpretation.
Star Trek video game 2259.32 to 2259.33
Star Trek Into Darkness main story 2259.55
Khan #1 to #4 frame story 2259.246; main stories are set from November 1971 to 1996 and over roughly 5 months from 2258 to 2259
Star Trek Into Darkness epilogue at the rededication ceremony of the Enterprise Kirk states the exposure of Marcus's conspiracy to be "nearly a year ago" so it could be late 2259 or early 2260. I like to think that the Enterprise sets out for its 5 year mission on the neat and clean date of January 1, 2260
#21 "After Darkness, Part 1" has a prologue set a week before its main story which has the Enterprise out in space. No date is given, but the main story presumably takes place right after the epilogue of Star Trek Into Darkness.
#22 "After Darkness, Part 2" no date given
#23 "After Darkness, Part 3" no date given
#24 no title; features the "Gorn" from the video game 2260.115
#25 "The Khitomer Conflict, Part 1" 2261.147; Starting with this issue the dates are apparently in 2261 but Yuki Sulu states "A five-year mission. Who could pass that up?"
#26 "The Khitomer Conflict, Part 2" no stardate given
#27 "The Khitomer Conflict, Part 3" 2261.149
#28 "The Khitomer Conflict, Part 4" 2261.168; beginning flashback mistakenly states the destruction of Vulcan by the Narada to be 4 years ago
#29 "Parallel Lives, Part 1" 2261.274; Jane Kirk states "but we're already underway into our five-year mission into uncharted space" even though it's way into 2261 by the stardate.
#30 "Parallel Lives, Part 2" 2261.234 (yes, the stardate in the text is lower than in the previous issue)
#31 "I, Enterprise, Part 1" no stardate given for frame story but Science Officer 0718 states the main story to begin "precisely two years, twenty-seven days, forty-three minutes, and seven seconds ago" so presumably soon before Star Trek Into Darkness
#32 "I, Enterprise, Part 2" presumably follows main story of previous issue

So there you go. Apologies if there any errors.

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Old March 26 2014, 03:41 AM   #744
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
#15 "Mirrored, Part 1" 2258.56 note however that the issue is apparently just a story that Scotty tells
I disagree with that interpretation since it is far too coincidental that Scotty just thinks up a universe where Starfleet serves an evil Terran Empire and that Spock Prime had an encounter with.
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Old March 26 2014, 03:59 AM   #745
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
#15 "Mirrored, Part 1" 2258.56 note however that the issue is apparently just a story that Scotty tells
I disagree with that interpretation since it is far too coincidental that Scotty just thinks up a universe where Starfleet serves an evil Terran Empire and that Spock Prime had an encounter with.
You're willing to accept a story where:

Gorkon is already Chancellor in 2258 and wears a helmet? (It should be Regent since it's a variation of the mirror universe and whatever is the point of the helmets?)
A Captain leads the conquest of Qo'noS (Shouldn't it be an admiral?)
The Enterprise (most likely also a flagship of Starfleet and its nation overall) is crewed by senior officers who are too young and have done too little in the name of their service?
Christopher Pike is a Terran Senator and a superior of the Enterprise (Imperial Starfleet issues should be handled by admirals, not the legislature) (and since when is the Terran Empire organized like the Romulan Star Empire?)
The artist mistakenly drew the I.S.S. Enterprise to look like a prime universe refit Constitution class
The writer mistakenly calls San Francisco the "capitol" of the Terran Empire (it should be "capital")
Earth and Vulcan are apparently "allies" in the empire (Vulcan should be a subject world of the Terran Empire, not an equal)

You may accept all this, but my opinion of Mirrored overall? It is an exemplum of how the ongoing comic is too lazy or else somehow unwilling to do alternate universe stories that are not carbon copies of the Abramsverse and the important characters and elements are ONLY from Star Trek 2009. Just look at unfulfilling Parallel Lives was.
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Old March 26 2014, 04:27 AM   #746
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Oh, I agree the Mirrored story is flawed, but then so are most of the Abramsverse comics in general. I just don't agree with the interpretation that it's "just a story Scotty told."

Although, in regards to some of your points.

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Gorkon is already Chancellor in 2258 and wears a helmet? (It should be Regent since it's a variation of the mirror universe and whatever is the point of the helmets?)
Since all Klingons wore the helmets in Trek XI's deleted scenes and none were seen without one, the nature of IDW's license meant any Abramsverse Klingons had to be identical to what we saw in that movie, for reasons of brand recognition. Therefore, Gorkon had to wear a helmet.

A Captain leads the conquest of Qo'noS (Shouldn't it be an admiral?)
I don't recall it being mentioned they had a fleet with them.

The Enterprise (most likely also a flagship of Starfleet and its nation overall) is crewed by senior officers who are too young and have done too little in the name of their service?
But then that's the same as the Abramsverse itself, so why hold that specifically against Mirrored?

Christopher Pike is a Terran Senator and a superior of the Enterprise (Imperial Starfleet issues should be handled by admirals, not the legislature) (and since when is the Terran Empire organized like the Romulan Star Empire?)
Perhaps the Terran Empire has influences of Rome? The are ruled by an emperor and if dialogue were to be taken literally from Mirror, Mirror, he is addressed as "Caesar."

The artist mistakenly drew the I.S.S. Enterprise to look like a prime universe refit Constitution class
The artist did the same with the USS Enterprise in the opening pages of the book, and more glaring is ISS Enterprise having the registry NCC-1701-D. Not to mention all the 24th century LCARS computer displays seen throughout the entire Ongoing line.

Earth and Vulcan are apparently "allies" in the empire (Vulcan should be a subject world of the Terran Empire, not an equal)
Vulcan being a subject world of the Terran Empire comes from Enterprise. Based on Mirror, Mirror, there's no indication the Vulcans are subjects. Indeed, quite the opposite given Spock was officially the first officer of the Enterprise, and that Starfleet was going to assign him command of the ship. Not to mention, Spock's reference to Vulcan operatives practically scared the piss out of Sulu, not the reaction one would expect the "master race" to have in regards to "slaves."
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Old March 26 2014, 11:06 PM   #747
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Point taken about Mirrored.

But that reminds me about something. If Mirrored does indeed depict a unique quantum reality with a Narada and Jellyfish incursion, does that confirm that the Abramsverse was already a quantum reality of its own, simply nigh-identical to the prime reality and that the artificial black hole from Star Trek 2009 was intertemporal AND interphasic? Additionally, Parallel Lives didn't specify the genders of its versions of Spock Prime and Nero, meaning that they could also be male and not female Leonard Nimoy and Eric Bana. It seems to me that this gives credence to the idea of the Abramsverse being a pre-existing quantum reality.
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Old March 26 2014, 11:36 PM   #748
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

^It doesn't confirm anything, since the comics aren't canonical. It's just how the writer chose to interpret it.
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Old March 27 2014, 02:34 AM   #749
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Point taken about Mirrored.

But that reminds me about something. If Mirrored does indeed depict a unique quantum reality with a Narada and Jellyfish incursion, does that confirm that the Abramsverse was already a quantum reality of its own, simply nigh-identical to the prime reality and that the artificial black hole from Star Trek 2009 was intertemporal AND interphasic? Additionally, Parallel Lives didn't specify the genders of its versions of Spock Prime and Nero, meaning that they could also be male and not female Leonard Nimoy and Eric Bana. It seems to me that this gives credence to the idea of the Abramsverse being a pre-existing quantum reality.
The official party line from Abrams and his pals is that both the Prime Universe and the Abramsverse share the same history until Nero's arrival and subsequent destruction of the Kelvin in 2233. Certainly STID seems to support this with the models of the Phoenix, Ringship Enterprise, NX test module and NX-01 seen in Marcus's office.

IDW on the other hand seems to be depicting the Abramsverse as a separate alternate reality even before 2233. But since the comics aren't canon, this interpretation doesn't really mean anything.
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Old March 27 2014, 09:50 PM   #750
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

The Wormhole wrote: View Post

The official party line from Abrams and his pals is that both the Prime Universe and the Abramsverse share the same history until Nero's arrival and subsequent destruction of the Kelvin in 2233. Certainly STID seems to support this with the models of the Phoenix, Ringship Enterprise, NX test module and NX-01 seen in Marcus's office.

IDW on the other hand seems to be depicting the Abramsverse as a separate alternate reality even before 2233. But since the comics aren't canon, this interpretation doesn't really mean anything.
Still though, if Roberto Orci himself oversees the IDW Abramsverse comics, then to me, that is a significant contradiction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMt3SzAH_i0
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