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Old March 24 2014, 07:05 PM   #181
beamMe
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Do we know for sure that there is any difference? Ignoring novels and Word of God for a moment, it's as much a possibility that the "Yesterday's Enterprise" timeline continued on after the E-C flew back into the rift and the -D was destroyed as it is that the Primeline was erased when Nero and Spock went back in time.

One could interpret YE like this: That the war timeline is the original, since the Enterprise-C skipped forward in time as a result of it's battle and then was sent back 22 years later, creating the TNG history which we know.
From our, the viewer's, perspective the TNG-timeline at the beginning and the end of the episode is the original (well, who can determine what's the actual original universe in Trek, at this point? ).

Anyway, the YE-universe is created at the moment the E-C falls trough time, and that's were the TNG-universe and the YE-timeline interact.
As the viewer, we only shift or point of view from one timeline to another.

The YE-universe continues on after the E-C returns to her time, and we shift back to our original point of view.
The TNG-timeline was never in danger, since the events around the E-C had already happened.

And, as this is a time loop for the E-C, there can't ever have been a TNG-universe were Tasha Yar wasn't on the E-C during the final stage of the battle for Narendra III.

That means, Sela was always alive and well on Romulus during all the episodes of TNG prior to her first appearance on screen.


(BTW: This bunch of nerdy bs should be enjoyed with a generous pinch of salt. )
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Old March 25 2014, 12:09 AM   #182
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
At least him and Michael Piller admitted there were some serious plotholes involved.
Did they elaborate on what these "serious plotholes" were?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But since the ship that actually arrived back in our universe must then have come from a parallel one (i.e. one where another Tasha Yar had equally not died on Vagra II) its actual configuration would be conjectural,
I'm not following. The beginning of YE shows the Sternbach-E affecting the timeline and also used to restore the timeline. There isn't any room for another conjectural universe to be involved.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
but we have the conference lounge wall of our "D" that tells us about the "C" that disappeared
The conference lounge sculptures? Uhm, the movie Enterprise warp nacelle pylons are conspicuously further back and on top of the shuttle bay. The Enterprise-B looks like a stock Excelsior instead of what she looked like in "Generations". And shouldn't there be 2 movie Enterprise/A models? And why is there an aircraft carrier and no space shuttle? And what about those Enterprises that were on display in the TMP lounge?

Are you also arguing that the movie-Enterprise and Enterprise-B were also "substituted" from a neighboring alternate universe or that the TNG-universe is the alternate universe (which funny enough, I'd agree it is an alternate universe relative to TOS )?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
and the one of the "E" that tells us which one reappeared (apparently, after the Federation and the Romulans started talking again to each other so the Federation could finally learn that another "C" saved the day at Narendra III).

What the Klingons actually did know about the Federation ship that rushed to their defense remains widely unknown. Possible they heard "This is Federation starship Enterprise NCC-1701-C, received your distress call and are en route to provide assistance" and that was about it. For all we know the Klingon eyewitnesses were just "earwitnesses" after the Romulans had taken out their long range communications!
If there were nothing left of the E-C then the Klingons would have no proof that they died defending Narendra. If they had debris from the E-C and it was not the one native to that universe that'd raise a red flag when the Klingons examined the debris and ask, "Hey, this isn't the Enterprise-C!" and again, we'd have a different history. In other words, to avoid a plothole then the E-C that disappeared and reappeared must be the same and native to that universe.
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Old March 25 2014, 01:44 AM   #183
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The conference lounge sculptures? Uhm, the movie Enterprise warp nacelle pylons are conspicuously further back and on top of the shuttle bay. The Enterprise-B looks like a stock Excelsior instead of what she looked like in "Generations". And shouldn't there be 2 movie Enterprise/A models? And why is there an aircraft carrier and no space shuttle? And what about those Enterprises that were on display in the TMP lounge?

Are you also arguing that the movie-Enterprise and Enterprise-B were also "substituted" from a neighboring alternate universe or that the TNG-universe is the alternate universe (which funny enough, I'd agree it is an alternate universe relative to TOS )?
At the risk of being dragged back into this silly topic, I must point out that the entire basis of Mr. Comsol's speculation (and that's what it is; speculation) is the conference lounge sculpture of the Enterprise-C, which is the only time that even a hint of the original Probert-inspired design was ever shown on screen. The inherent problem with this speculation however, is that absolutely no attention has been paid on his part to how completely inaccurate the other sculptures on that display are. Where is the huge five page treatise to explain the incorrect Enterprise-B? What about that TMP Connie with its nacelle pylons sticking directly out of the shuttlebay? Where's the NX-01? If Picard really was all that concerned with "truth in advertising," wouldn't he want to know why Jonathan Archer's famous Earth ship Enterprise wasn't glued to that wall?

Sorry, but using those sculptures as evidence of anything is dubious at best. As I once said before, those ships seem to be nothing more than abstract representations of the real ships they were meant to represent. The closest I'd come to agreeing with Mr. Comsol's speculations is that I'd admit that it is possible that the ship representing the Ent-C in that sculpture could be a variant of the Ambassador class (just like the "real" Enterprise-B is a variant of the original Excelsior class design, which is represented by the sculpture). But that variant is certainly not the Enterprise-C, as we saw the correct design in YE and I'm not swayed by any speculation that it wasn't supposed to be the real McCoy, so to speak.
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Old March 25 2014, 02:36 AM   #184
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Dukhat wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The conference lounge sculptures? Uhm, the movie Enterprise warp nacelle pylons are conspicuously further back and on top of the shuttle bay. The Enterprise-B looks like a stock Excelsior instead of what she looked like in "Generations". And shouldn't there be 2 movie Enterprise/A models? And why is there an aircraft carrier and no space shuttle? And what about those Enterprises that were on display in the TMP lounge?

Are you also arguing that the movie-Enterprise and Enterprise-B were also "substituted" from a neighboring alternate universe or that the TNG-universe is the alternate universe (which funny enough, I'd agree it is an alternate universe relative to TOS )?
At the risk of being dragged back into this silly topic, I must point out that the entire basis of Mr. Comsol's speculation (and that's what it is; speculation) is the conference lounge sculpture of the Enterprise-C, which is the only time that even a hint of the original Probert-inspired design was ever shown on screen. The inherent problem with this speculation however, is that absolutely no attention has been paid on his part to how completely inaccurate the other sculptures on that display are. Where is the huge five page treatise to explain the incorrect Enterprise-B? What about that TMP Connie with its nacelle pylons sticking directly out of the shuttlebay? Where's the NX-01? If Picard really was all that concerned with "truth in advertising," wouldn't he want to know why Jonathan Archer's famous Earth ship Enterprise wasn't glued to that wall?

Sorry, but using those sculptures as evidence of anything is dubious at best. As I once said before, those ships seem to be nothing more than abstract representations of the real ships they were meant to represent. The closest I'd come to agreeing with Mr. Comsol's speculations is that I'd admit that it is possible that the ship representing the Ent-C in that sculpture could be a variant of the Ambassador class (just like the "real" Enterprise-B is a variant of the original Excelsior class design, which is represented by the sculpture). But that variant is certainly not the Enterprise-C, as we saw the correct design in YE and I'm not swayed by any speculation that it wasn't supposed to be the real McCoy, so to speak.
And to add to your point, how do we not know if the sculpture was a gift from an artist (who was not a member of Starfleet and/or made a few errors if you want to add that) to Picard during the Enterprise-D's launch?
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Old March 25 2014, 02:52 PM   #185
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

beamMe wrote: View Post
...the YE-universe is created at the moment the E-C falls trough time, and that's were the TNG-universe and the YE-timeline interact.
As the viewer, we only shift our point of view from one timeline to another.

The YE-universe continues on after the E-C returns to her time, and we shift back to our original point of view.
The TNG-timeline was never in danger, since the events around the E-C had already happened.

And, as this is a time loop for the E-C, there can't ever have been a TNG-universe were Tasha Yar wasn't on the E-C during the final stage of the battle for Narendra III.

That means, Sela was always alive and well on Romulus during all the episodes of TNG prior to her first appearance on screen.

(BTW: This bunch of nerdy bs should be enjoyed with a generous pinch of salt. )
I think you're right that the concept of the YE-universe works best as a separate entity from the standard universe, as it eliminates some of the weirder issues I mentioned upthread. It also gives Tasha somewhere permanent to originate from!

However, I don't see how the YE-universe can continue on once the E-C returns to her own time and does the noble sacrifice thing. Wasn't the act supposed to STOP the Klingon war? You may be right that it failed to change anything, but there's a depressing thought for the war-torn crew of the E-D, they all died for nothing! Then again, if the return of the E-C wasn't enough to restore relations with the Klingons, why would her absence be enough to trigger the war in the first place?

Also, if the E-C was always going to go into the future and return, then why would there be any changes to the timeline at all? Her movement is just an established part of history, right?

This time travel stuff is getting weird, I'm off to fetch the salt

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
In "The Naked Time", Tormolen died and likely stayed dead even though they went back in time 3 days on their own timeline and altered their future by not reliving what they went through. They still retained their memories and instrument data of coming up with the time travel formula. Since they didn't relive the next 3 days, that should have invalidated discovering the time travel formula since they would have never been forced to use it to restart the engines.
Funny, I always saw that little jaunt as ending up with TWO Enterprises flying round the galaxy, for those 3 days anyway. There's nothing to suggest they replaced their earlier selves in the timeline.
The net result of their time-warp adventure - Enterprise turns up at her next assignment 3 days early, whilst simultaneously carrying out her mission to Psi-2000
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Old March 25 2014, 03:49 PM   #186
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

^^ I concur. One TOS Enterprise had travelled back in time but was never seen by the other still orbiting Psi 2000.

beamMe wrote: View Post
The TNG-timeline was never in danger, since the events around the E-C had already happened.
That's what the Novikov self-consistency principle states, but what the producers of "Yesterday's Enterprise" apparently opted for instead was this:

beamMe wrote: View Post
The YE-universe is created at the moment the E-C falls trough time, and that's were the TNG-universe and the YE-timeline interact.
The question, where magic gets involved, is who (Q?) or what created the YE-universe and gave the protagonists a different memory of 20 years past? I addressed the issue (and the first dialogue plotholes for blssdwlf) in this part of the original thread / treatise.

"This time line will cease to exist and a new future will have been created. I've considered the alternatives. I'll go with Guinan's recommendation."
(Michael Piller: "Picard sends a hundred people into their deaths upon the word of a bartender. Come On." Another plothole, according to Michael Piller, for blssdwlf)

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
I'm not following. The beginning of YE shows the Sternbach-E affecting the timeline and also used to restore the timeline. There isn't any room for another conjectural universe to be involved.
There is after “Redemption II”, but you and some others simply won’t acknowledge that possibility. And from a strictly in-universe point of view, the only thing suggesting it’s just a changed timeline (and not a parallel universe) are the “universe at war” protagonists of the alternate reality. Heck, already the crew of our Enterprise-D (a ship of exploration) was unable to define the properties of the “temporal rift” but the crew of the Battleship Enterprise-D (a ship of war) has all the answers?
The only thing they could verify beyond a doubt was that the Sternbach-C was the “immediate predecessor” to the Battleship “D” within their alternate reality.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The conference lounge sculptures? Uhm, the movie Enterprise warp nacelle pylons are conspicuously further back and on top of the shuttle bay. The Enterprise-B looks like a stock Excelsior instead of what she looked like in "Generations". And shouldn't there be 2 movie Enterprise/A models? And why is there an aircraft carrier and no space shuttle? And what about those Enterprises that were on display in the TMP lounge?
First, I think you’re violating your own Thermian principles. I’m not aware that we have a good onscreen shot of the movie Enterprise with the odd warp pylons. This is a behind-the-scenes production picture I provided, but since you admittedly ignore that kind of information, you shouldn’t make use of it, now.

Second, I’ve already addressed the issue first thing in the original thread / treatise and think I provided a reasonable explanation. I can’t see what’s possibly wrong or inaccurate about the sculpture display other than a warp pylon being misaligned while the basic proportions of the ships’ components on display are correct. Instead of splitting hairs we are now splitting warp pylons?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
If there were nothing left of the E-C then the Klingons would have no proof that they died defending Narendra. If they had debris from the E-C and it was not the one native to that universe that'd raise a red flag when the Klingons examined the debris and ask, "Hey, this isn't the Enterprise-C!" and again, we'd have a different history. In other words, to avoid a plothole then the E-C that disappeared and reappeared must be the same and native to that universe.
In that case that would be the Probert-C and the sculpture display on the “E” is just a presentation of an evolution lineage of a Starfleet design with its more popular representatives.

But seriously, we don’t have sufficient information of what actually happened at Narendra III in 2344 in the various realities. Did the Enterprise-C save the outpost from destruction (“other” Picard’s speculation) or didn’t she (“other” Riker)? Did she just distract the Romulans long enough to enable the escape of one or some Klingon survivors to tell the story that a Federation starship came to their rescue? Did the Enterprise-C from “Yesterday’s Enterprise” collide head-on with a Romulan warbird (DATA: There is a high degree of probability that the temporal rift is symmetrical, Captain.)? Did the re-appearance of another Enterprise-C make the Romulans believe they were dealing with several “cloaked” Federation starships and therefore decided to break off the attack? Did the returning Enterprise-C suffer a warp core breach vaporizing the ship (and leaving no trace?)?

Why did the Romulans take captives? Where they interested to gain strategic information on that starship design? Where they interested to learn about the disappearance effect? Where they interested to learn about a possible new Federation cloaking device?

Like I said, being probably deprived of their long-range scanning equipment the Klingons might just have had audio and no visual confirmation what the re-appearing Enterprise-C might have looked like (it only stands to reason that the Romulans knew). The only thing we can know from “Yesterday’s Enterprise” is that the Enterprise-C was “last seen near Narendra III” (and apparently before the Romulan attack on the outpost).

Dukhat wrote: View Post
At the risk of being dragged back into this silly topic, I must point out that the entire basis of Mr. Comsol's speculation (and that's what it is; speculation) is the conference lounge sculpture of the Enterprise-C, which is the only time that even a hint of the original Probert-inspired design was ever shown on screen. The inherent problem with this speculation however, is that absolutely no attention has been paid on his part to how completely inaccurate the other sculptures on that display are.
No one dragged you back. Yes, it’s the conference lounge sculpture of Andrew Probert’s Enterprise-C, nicely visible in almost all conference lounge scenes of the first four TNG seasons and fleshed out by the artist as a painting (see my avatar) which some members of “my” generation back in 1988 had therefore come to accept as the real thing and part of an unseen story.

And before I have the audacity to declare his design as “fanwank” or “apocrypha” I feel it’s necessary to examine all the facts / give his design the benefit of a doubt to be certain beyond a shred of doubt that Rick Sternbach’s Enterprise-C actually did “erase” or “overwrite” it.

If “Yesterday’s Enterprise” was really just a changed timeline of “our” universe, I would have to agree, but with the apparent relocation of these events into a “parallel universe” (and by the same screenplay writer and director of “Yesterday’s Enterprise” for several good reasons I’ve already presented), we are looking at quite a different outcome, i.e. multiple configurations of multiple Enterprises-C in multiple universes.

Contrary to your claims, in both threads I have now abundantly addressed the presentation of the golden ships on the conference lounge wall of the Enterprise-D. But however rough, raw, simple or crude these may be (“starships named Enterprise and their equivalent in previous centuries”), their proportions allow a quick and easy distinction – however, the Enterprise-C on display is obviously not the one featured in “Yesterday’s Enterprise”.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
But that [Probert] variant is certainly not the Enterprise-C, as we saw the correct design in YE and I'm not swayed by any speculation that it wasn't supposed to be the real McCoy, so to speak.
Everyone is entitled to assume or believe whatever he or she thinks works best.

I admit that my original treatise was speculation, but already the plotholes and prop oddities of “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, not to forget the possibility that we were looking at a stage created by Q to put Guinan between a rock and a hard place for what she did to him two episodes earlier (!), suggested that we might be looking at parallel events in a parallel universe.

I think it’s fair to say that neither Ronald Moore or David Carson cared about starship designs as we do, obviously.

What mattered to them (and rightly so) were the characters and apparently the only solution to have Tasha keep her meaningful death in the aftermath of “Yesterday’s Enterprise” was to relocate its events into a “parallel universe” (Carson) so that another Tasha (from another parallel universe) could be captured, give birth to Sela but finally die a meaningless death being executed because of a failed escape attempt.

This conclusion can be deducted from the statements of Moore, Carson, Guinan and Sela and constitutes a different “canon” than the one previously assumed, regardless whether you like it or not. You can choose to ignore it, but please give me a break making absolute statements like “there is only one correct Enterprise-C” or “there is only one canon Enterprise-C” (which was the reason why I started the original thread / treatise, BTW).

Bob
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Old March 25 2014, 04:06 PM   #187
sojourner
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

The gold model is not a canon starship. It's a canon model.
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Old March 25 2014, 06:27 PM   #188
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Seriously, these models are what you are double-down on?

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...ost_hd_207.jpg

I guess in the ST Universe, CVN-65 doesn't have a canted flight deck either?

As for the War Universe, Trek had already provided an example where one timeline is replaced by another do to a change in significance (in fact on the broad strokes, COTEOF and YE are similar; we the viewers just get to see the changes in the latter).
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Old March 25 2014, 06:31 PM   #189
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Those models, frankly, are crap. LOL )
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Old March 25 2014, 06:33 PM   #190
beamMe
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Mytran wrote: View Post

However, I don't see how the YE-universe can continue on once the E-C returns to her own time and does the noble sacrifice thing. Wasn't the act supposed to STOP the Klingon war? You may be right that it failed to change anything, but there's a depressing thought for the war-torn crew of the E-D, they all died for nothing!
I'm afraid, from their pov they did die for nothing.
That's a weakness in the narrative of that story.

Mytran wrote: View Post
Also, if the E-C was always going to go into the future and return, then why would there be any changes to the timeline at all? Her movement is just an established part of history, right?
The "change" we saw was only our shifting pov from observing our TNG heroes to witnessing the time-travel-adventure of the Enterprise-C, where she arrived in a universe were she went missing. That she arrives and then returns to her original timeline doesn't affect the "war"-timeline as the event that created that universe had already happend.
But our pov shifts from the E-C back to TNG at the end.
Had our pov stayed with "our" TNG the episode would have been over in a few seconds and Guinan's sudden interest in Tasha Yar wouldn't have made sense to us.

Mhmm, maybe we see it from Guinan's pov, come to think of it.

To make this short: It's all a bit timey-wimey.

Mytran wrote: View Post
This time travel stuff is getting weird, I'm off to fetch the salt
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Old March 25 2014, 06:41 PM   #191
Robert Comsol
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

BK613 wrote: View Post
I guess in the ST Universe, CVN-65 doesn't have a canted flight deck either?
You are probably righht - and all the ships only consist of 60% of the starboard side, so the crews can always have a nice and unobstructed view from the sliced off port side

And while everybody seems stuck in "discrediting mode" let's speed it up:



Notice how the stardrive section of the "D" is not parallel to the saucer section. And what's up with the connecting dorsal of the TOS Enterprise? A useless piece of crap and garbage and Comsol is the only one who believes he can still tell the various starships apart from each other.

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Old March 25 2014, 07:24 PM   #192
Mytran
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Yep, not one accurate representation of a known starship among that lot!

I wonder, is this one of the reasons why Picard hates children so much? They've cobbled together this piece of crap in Junior Arts Class and some high ranking Admiral (probably one of the kids' fathers) has ordered Picard to display it in his board room, as it gives the ship a more "family feel".


"We are not amused"

It was with great regret that he had to have it replaced following the destructive actions of a certain Gul. Awwwww.
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Old March 25 2014, 08:06 PM   #193
BK613
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
BK613 wrote: View Post
I guess in the ST Universe, CVN-65 doesn't have a canted flight deck either?
You are probably righht - and all the ships only consist of 60% of the starboard side, so the crews can always have a nice and unobstructed view from the sliced off port side
Oh yes this flight deck is exactly the same as the one in the model...nice to see the proportions are also correct on the size of the island compared to the hull.
Can I tell it represents the aircraft carrier? Sure, enough abstracted elements are there. But I sure as hell would not use it as a basis for claiming Star trek's CVN-65 is a straight-deck carrier...you know, like CV-6.
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Old March 25 2014, 09:02 PM   #194
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Mytran wrote: View Post
Yep, not one accurate representation of a known starship among that lot!
Perhaps all of them were cast from the first concept models for each class, rather than the final commissioned ships.

Or, could the C in YE have been a Ambassador refit? Yes they are completely different, but more different than the Connie and Connie refit?
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Old March 25 2014, 09:29 PM   #195
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Rarewolf wrote: View Post
Perhaps all of them were cast from the first concept models for each class, rather than the final commissioned ships.

Or, could the C in YE have been a Ambassador refit? Yes they are completely different, but more different than the Connie and Connie refit?
OR... they just don´t put to much effort doing the right shapes cause it could be seen just for a few seconds in a few episodes, and vitually no one (except the hardcore fans, of course!) would pay attemption to them.
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