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Old March 15 2014, 07:07 AM   #16
Shik
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

If I say "the Battle of Stalingrad", people know what I'm talking about. If I say "the Battle of Volgograd", they'll ask me what the fuck I'm on about. Don't be a putz.

As for intercolonial conflict, consider it less like what you're thinking & more like claim jumping on a mine. Suppose (using your elements) Ross 154 is unsettled for many years & those from Wolf 359 having been using its planets for their own purposes. Then one day, a ship shows up & drops a bunch of people on 154's only habitable world. They then proceed to claim the entire system as theirs. The 359ers say, "Uh, no, we were here first, we have a claim." The 154 folk respond, back & forth we go, until someone's running back inside the log pressure dome screaming, "Maw! Git the phaser musket! We gots varmints!" People like to own shit.

Regardless, I'm sorry you don't find such things plausible, but it's not a new concept in Trek, & it is an integral part of what's been built in these articles. Thank you. Next question?
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Old March 20 2014, 10:30 AM   #17
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

I'm with Shik here - warp drive being so dirt cheap makes it really tempting to revert to bad old ways. We already canonically have space piracy, space traders running like tramps rather than packets, space wife-selling, all the old habits and vices returning, as fitting of Horatio Hornblowe in Spaaaace! Why not fairly irrational claim-squabbling as well?

As for USS Stalingrad, well, obviously we would have USS Agincourt even though that's doubly wrong, too - USS Azincourt or USS Whatever Village or Geographical Feature Really Marked the Spot Equidistant from the Agincourt and Tramecourt Landmarks would not be fitting, as it's the battle we commemorate, not the location, and through a specific vantage point and narrative, too, not through any sort of an objective viewpoint.

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Old March 20 2014, 06:13 PM   #18
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

Except for the canon-picking and obvious jackassery in which not much has been talked about in this thread, I applaud the undertaking though it is starting to take on a Dixonesque attitude.
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Old March 20 2014, 08:40 PM   #19
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

ProwlAlpha wrote: View Post
Except for the canon-picking and obvious jackassery in which not much has been talked about in this thread, I applaud the undertaking though it is starting to take on a Dixonesque attitude.
How do you mean by "Dixonesque"? I know who Dixon is, but I don't understand how you're applying the term here. Pliss to explen.
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Old March 21 2014, 12:02 AM   #20
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

Shik wrote: View Post
How do you mean by "Dixonesque"?
I don't want fans making their own entries.

This isn't modifiable for anyone but me.

I don't want them rated, scaled & the like.


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Old March 21 2014, 03:48 AM   #21
Shik
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

Is it so wrong that I don't want my project--which I've worked long & hard over with great pains to align nicely--to be turned into a wiki & fucked up by some schmuck who insists on adding the Luna-class or some STO class or the USS OMFGZ Phazorz Battlship to it? How is this different from, say, Masao's work (which denies all of ENT outright) or Timo's work (which shoehorns in as many old fandom classes as possible)?

I ask for real feedback & criticism to make it better, but that does not mean I want to change it to the whims of everyone else. My universe, my rules. Other people can (& have, & do) make their own to their liking to play in.
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Old March 21 2014, 06:18 AM   #22
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

Shik wrote: View Post
Is it so wrong that I don't want my project--which I've worked long & hard over with great pains to align nicely--to be turned into a wiki & fucked up by some schmuck ...
That would be the Dixonesque part.

How is this different from, say, Masao's work ...
From my observation, while Masao doesn't seem to allow many into his site, he has no problem with people monkeying with his ideas and designs. I've seen him compliment people here and at DeviantArt who have reinterpreted and modified his work.

Can't remember him employing the term "schmuck."

My universe, my rules.
Shik this is a discussion site, once you put your ideas and concepts out for examination, the direction of that discussion is out of your control.

But no, you don't have to accept any of the ideas generated here.


Last edited by Merry Christmas; March 21 2014 at 06:33 AM.
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Old March 21 2014, 06:54 AM   #23
Shik
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Shik wrote: View Post
Is it so wrong that I don't want my project--which I've worked long & hard over with great pains to align nicely--to be turned into a wiki & fucked up by some schmuck ...
That would be the Dixonesque part.

How is this different from, say, Masao's work ...
From my observation, while Masao doesn't seem to allow many into his site, he has no problem with people monkeying with his ideas and designs. I've seen him compliment people here and at DeviantArt who have reinterpreted and modified his work.

Can't remember him employing the term "schmuck."

My universe, my rules.
Shik this is a discussion site, once you put your ideas and concepts out for examination, the direction of that discussion is out of your control.

But no, you don't have to accept any of the ideas generated here.

A) I didn't do this for anyone but me. It's a reflection of my take on the universe. I don't know Dixon's motivations nor do I care to.

B/C) This ties in with the above. I cannot stop anyone from taking what I've done & utilizing it for their own purposes, perhaps even modifying it for their own purposes. In fact, I would not mind that at all. But once that's done it ceases to be mine & becomes theirs. But mine is mine; there's only a single arbiter for what goes & that's me. Nothing I've written or drawn up is static except for me. Should someone else choose to use it & make changes, power to them. Cthulhu knows I've stolen from enough sources & changed things around to fit my purposes enough. Who am I to prevent anyone else from doing so?

Schmuck is a mild term. Now, if I'd shifted into Icelandic, Chinese, Russian, Hindi, or Rromanes....well.
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Old March 25 2014, 03:04 PM   #24
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

Timo wrote: View Post

As for USS Stalingrad, well, obviously we would have USS Agincourt even though that's doubly wrong, too - USS Azincourt or USS Whatever Village or Geographical Feature Really Marked the Spot Equidistant from the Agincourt and Tramecourt Landmarks would not be fitting, as it's the battle we commemorate, not the location, and through a specific vantage point and narrative, too, not through any sort of an objective viewpoint.

Timo Saloniemi

Well sorry, I thought since the other Dieppe-class ships are named for cities, I would think that the name of the freaking city in the future would still be Volgograd. Why they would name a ship after a short-lived city in 20th century named after a brutal dictator, I'm not sure.
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Old March 25 2014, 04:23 PM   #25
Timo
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

Okay, in terms of that argument, we should remember that St Petersburg has reverted back to Leningrad by the 2280s.

Both these names come from "brutal dictators", of course (or did anybody back in the days of the Great Northern War really buy into "St" referring to the biblical figure?). If we categorically shied away from those, we couldn't have USS Washington or USS Gandhi, either, because every ruler with such great numbers of deaths on their (supposed) conscience risks being considered brutal or dictatorial at some point.

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Old March 26 2014, 01:20 AM   #26
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

Good luck, Shik!

My first rule when taking on a project like this is to keep it under wraps until it's done. If you post a WIP in a public forum like this, you are inviting people to comment. Some comments will be constructive, and some will be ill-informed and mean-spirited. Some people will complain that your project is not the project they would have done or would like to see and is, therefore, a waste of time. But you shouldn't argue with people over your choices. Take the advice or ignore it, but by posting here, you're asking for it.

But my question is why do you need to show it now? If you're looking for an "attaboy" and praise and encouragement, you shouldn't need that to keep you going. If you're looking for real advice, then share it only with people whose advice you trust. Nowadays, I share my articles and designs before they're posted with only 2 other people (who I trust and have been working with for about 10 years).

T'Girl: For the right price, I am willing to call anyone you designate "a schmuck." Make me an offer.
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Old March 26 2014, 02:30 PM   #27
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

^ I'll PM you a list.

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Old March 30 2014, 10:15 AM   #28
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

After reading through the tidbits, I noticed that there are a lot of ships with warship designations and other similar designations, but there are not a lot of auxiliaries.

If you look at the navies in the past and the present, the majority of the Navy are support ships and other auxiliaries.

Besides the fact, that your list doesn't show rises and lows in shipbuilding. You can tell exactly what kind of events are happening in a country by their armament increase and decrease.

Also, there isn't any ships that were planned or ordered, but then cancelled due ending of wars, arms races, failed prototypes, and failed technologies.
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Old March 31 2014, 06:14 PM   #29
Shik
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

ProwlAlpha wrote: View Post
After reading through the tidbits, I noticed that there are a lot of ships with warship designations and other similar designations, but there are not a lot of auxiliaries.

If you look at the navies in the past and the present, the majority of the Navy are support ships and other auxiliaries.
The reason for so few purpose-built auxiliaries is due to the fact that line vessels are often downgraded & gutted for conversion to these purposes. Ref. Lantree & Bradford. But later generations do have more purpose-built members of those types.

Besides the fact, that your list doesn't show rises and lows in shipbuilding. You can tell exactly what kind of events are happening in a country by their armament increase and decrease.

Also, there isn't any ships that were planned or ordered, but then cancelled due ending of wars, arms races, failed prototypes, and failed technologies.
With a single exception, I have so far declined to mention those things in the generational overviews because they weren't relevant, were too tangential, & could be edited. A couple later articles may address it, & it will be mentioned more in the ship-specific ones.
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Old March 31 2014, 09:43 PM   #30
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Re: History of Starfleet/Starfleet register project

I understand it is much more interesting to talk about frontline ships like cruisers, destroyers, and such; but they are nothing without support.

There is a reason why auxiliaries and other support ships are often militarized versions of commercial ones; engines and other systems that work well on a vessel designed with a primary and secondary combat systems tend to break down much faster due to the stress being put on them. While we have one example of a what appears to be an older ship relegated to a support role, those ships will not last as long as a ship that was built for such role.

If the Lantree was converted due to some events in the early 24th Century, where Starfleet needed more support ships due to belligerent star nation or a cold war-like status, then yes it was a feasible thing to do at that time. In regarding the Bradford, who knows what internal layout that ship has, it could be completely different and downgraded due to its vastly different mission role than a Miranda.

My advice would be to expand the tensions and events that occurred in the Trek history and then start plugging in ship classes with ship numbers, names, and other pertinent data. I would read the naval history of the US, UK, Russia, and France of the 20th to get a feel for it otherwise you're going to spouting that the UFP had a 1,000 Wambundus built for no real reason except for fill in the registry numbers.

It is much more interesting to know that the Wambundus were designed and built in non-Starfleet shipyards using indigneous and local materials for local system defense and patrol and the Wambundus were more operated by local Starfleet's version of the National Guard. That eventually, the Wambundus were retired en masse twenty years later due to the introduction of the Sword-class light frigate, which was much more powerful, but smaller. All conjecture of course.
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