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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 23 2014, 10:15 PM   #436
Hober Mallow
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

publiusr wrote: View Post
Politically you can look at it either way. You might call them libertarians who are private property types not themselves native, and that this is eminent domain ("takings") of the state, in which Starfleet is to the Left--or that it is environmental exploitation, and, the Sona are to the right.

You can argue either side on this...
And I doubt Piller had either such superficial political nonsense in mind.
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Old March 23 2014, 10:31 PM   #437
Hartzilla2007
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
there's no evidence that Dougherty lied to the council. The entire set-up of the observation post(with a large group of Starfleet personnel) as well as the holoship indicates that the council was fully aware that the planet had a small number of inhabitants. Once again you're forced to try to fill in plot holes with speculation that contradicts the movie in order to make your argument.
So you're saying the Federation Council okayed the use of an illegal cloaking device?

publiusr wrote: View Post
and that this is eminent domain
No, its not eminent domain doesn't work that way.
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Old March 23 2014, 10:54 PM   #438
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
there's no evidence that Dougherty lied to the council. The entire set-up of the observation post(with a large group of Starfleet personnel) as well as the holoship indicates that the council was fully aware that the planet had a small number of inhabitants. Once again you're forced to try to fill in plot holes with speculation that contradicts the movie in order to make your argument.
So you're saying the Federation Council okayed the use of an illegal cloaking device?

publiusr wrote: View Post
and that this is eminent domain
No, its not eminent domain doesn't work that way.

I'm not sure if they specifically okayed a holoship, but they probably gave Dougherty the parameters of "removal without violence and without the inhabitants finding out," which the holoship would do rather nicely at.
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Old March 23 2014, 10:55 PM   #439
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

No, its not eminent domain doesn't work that way.
For all we know, it is exactly how eminent domain works in the 24th century Federation.
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Old March 23 2014, 10:57 PM   #440
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
publiusr wrote: View Post
Politically you can look at it either way. You might call them libertarians who are private property types not themselves native, and that this is eminent domain ("takings") of the state, in which Starfleet is to the Left--or that it is environmental exploitation, and, the Sona are to the right.

You can argue either side on this...
And I doubt Piller had either such superficial political nonsense in mind.

I think the movie makes it clear that he had something like the forced relocations of cultures(like American Indians) in mind. Unfortunately, Piller totally botched the dilemma to the point where there's no connection to that analogy, and he seems to have forgotten that TNG did an episode WITH AMERICAN INDIANS where Picard came to the opposite conclusion than he did here.
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Old March 23 2014, 11:06 PM   #441
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
So you're saying the Federation Council okayed the use of an illegal cloaking device?
We saw a near identical "duck blind" in who watches the watchers. It would seem to be a standard piece of Federation technology.

In the case of the holoship, this is after the Romulan said it was okay for the Federation to use a cloaking device on the Defiant and that might indicate that the treaty was basically voided with the Romulans agreement.
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Old March 23 2014, 11:49 PM   #442
2takesfrakes
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
It would reflect better on the movie if it was meant to portray the conflict in an ambiguous way, but I just don't see it. Everything from the beauty of the Baku, the ugliness of the Son'a, and the fact that "our heroes" all line up on the side of the Baku indicates that we are meant to see the conflict in pure black and white terms.
Relocating groups of people who have made an area their home for a long time is something that still goes on, even to this day. I remember Jews being moved because of territory given over to Palistinians, and they wore stars of David on their shirts in protest, as Israeli police carry out their orders to remove them. The passionate defiance of these hold-outs and their circumstances isn't a bad idea to base a story on, actually. Of course, the stories contained in "Trails of Tears" isn't iether. A lot of Human drama is to be had with a story like that.

Unfortunately ... STARFLEET's backdoor involvement prevents this so-called blood feud from ever escalating and the only passion being shown is by F. Murray Abraham. This movie cried out for people being wrenched, pulled, torn away from their lives and for STARFLEET to be stuck in a Catch22, deciding how to get around the Prime Directive. The elements are all there in this movie, it just needed some judicious editing and rewriting, that's all ...
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Old March 24 2014, 01:18 AM   #443
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Actually cut the Son'a out, keep the rings, and have Starfleet Medical/Commandpushing to use the planet to house war refufess/wounded cause of the rings' healing properties. Kick the Baku down to a very primitive, tribal, native born race, and removing them from the planet will kill them.
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Old March 24 2014, 03:38 AM   #444
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Wouldn't solve the question of why the Baku need the -entire planet- though...
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Old March 24 2014, 04:00 AM   #445
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

No, its not eminent domain doesn't work that way.
For all we know, it is exactly how eminent domain works in the 24th century Federation.
That doesn't exactly disprove my point that the TNG Federation is acting like Russia under Putin in this movie.

In fact it's just the opposite.

What with eminent domain of today requiring a legal proceeding which in part (from the sounds of it) finds out if a government can actually seize the piece of land in question and makes sure the owner is given just compensation.

You can find out about that stuff here

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...eminent+domain

So I don't really see why the federation would change to a version that shits on due process rights.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Actually cut the Son'a out, keep the rings, and have Starfleet Medical/Commandpushing to use the planet to house war refufess/wounded cause of the rings' healing properties. Kick the Baku down to a very primitive, tribal, native born race, and removing them from the planet will kill them.
And they couldn't set up the hospital refugee center on the other side of the planet why exactly?

Last edited by Hartzilla2007; March 24 2014 at 04:10 AM.
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Old March 24 2014, 04:40 AM   #446
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
This movie would have been a lot more interesting if Dougherty had at least one Starfleet ship in the area that respected his POV. One wonders whether Our Heroes would have been so willing to engage in hostilities with their own people versus a bunch of (manipulatively) ugly aliens.
Well the crew of the Starfleet ship would probably be screwed if they went along with Ru'afo and Dougherty's plan to attack the Enterprise.

Say what you will about getting into a fire fight with Picard but unprovoked attacks on the Federation flagship just to stop them from complaining to the Federation council are not likely to well received by said council, what with Picard mentioning Dougherty possibly facing a court martial for that.

indeed, yet another point about the movie that makes no sense. Dougherty outright says that he's acting on orders from the council then gets freaked out about Riker... going to contact the council. So... he's going to inform them about something they know about, and gave the orders about.
Assuming he wasn't lying his ass off about the council okaying the plan.

The fact that the script segment that was posted earlier in the thread partially cuts out the part where Picard points out Dougherty is actually hiding what's going on from the Starfleet officers working for him kind of calls that into question.

Plus the fact that normally the Enterprise wouldn't be able to contact the federation council, find out if Dougherty was lying his ass off, and then come back before the particles were harvested and the planet rendered uninhabitable. So Dougherty freaking out in a situation where the Enterprise has time to contact the bosses and still get back to an inhabitable ringed planet looks kind of suspicious especially with the whole shooting Data thing.

Then there is the federation council deciding to put a stop to it rather quickly for a large governing body considering how fast Riker got back to the planet.

And finally it's not like a crazy admiral wouldn't think the council would be suddenly okay with doing stuff like conquering a planet behind their backs.

I mean in universe this is only a few years after Admiral Layton thought all he needed to take over the federation was to depose the president and hold Earth with only having enough ships to hold the system supporting him because the other over several thousand ships their captains, the other off world admirals commanding starbases, and the 149 other federation planets would just roll over for no reason just because he has Earth.

So yeah I'm not going to believe Dougherty just because he says so.
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Old March 24 2014, 05:28 AM   #447
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

The council didn't "put a stop" to anything. They said they'd reevaluate the situation.

It's essentially a temporary injunction, and those can go either way.
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Old March 24 2014, 12:25 PM   #448
T'Girl
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
What with eminent domain of today requiring a legal proceeding which in part (from the sounds of it) finds out if a government can actually seize the piece of land in question and makes sure the owner is given just compensation.
That assumes that the Council saw the Baku's "claim" as legitimate in the first place, The Admiral points out that they're not indigenous to the Federation planet, in doing so he could have been repeating the Federation Councils decision on the matter.

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Old March 24 2014, 01:23 PM   #449
BillJ
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
That doesn't exactly disprove my point that the TNG Federation is acting like Russia under Putin in this movie.

In fact it's just the opposite.

What with eminent domain of today requiring a legal proceeding which in part (from the sounds of it) finds out if a government can actually seize the piece of land in question and makes sure the owner is given just compensation.
I know exactly what eminent domain is in the here and now. Problem is we're not discussing the "here and now", we're talking about a society that exists three hundred years in the future and has one-hundred different species as members.

Trying to ascribe human values, which we don't even all agree on, to such a society is beyond ludicrous. People claim they watch Star Trek because its "smart and sophisticated" yet go for the most black and white explanation possible when discussing the ethics of the future.

The Vulcans wrote:
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...
The only thing that is clear to me about Star Trek: Insurrection is that Picard betrayed his oath as a Starfleet officer and committed treason against his government. If he wants to have a hand in those types of decisions, he should resign his commission and run for a seat on the Federation Council.

Star Trek: Insurrection wrote:
I have to go back, if only to ...slow things down at the Federation Council.
The quoted is not the job of a starship captain. I don't care if his name is Jean-Luc Picard, James T. Kirk or Seymour Butts.
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Old March 24 2014, 04:11 PM   #450
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Agreed. The only way Picard should be able to get out of this without at least a formal inquiry is if it develops that Dougherty really was lying about his orders...and even then an inquiry would likely result.
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