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Old March 23 2014, 07:25 AM   #16
Victory Is Life
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

T'Girl wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
This neocon fantasy ...
Better them, than the liberal lack of intelligencia.

... that the best way to be secure is to exercise facism-level military dominance over the galaxy ...
Not the galaxy, but certainly within the Federation's borders.

No, they claim to protect the Federation itself.

How is that any different than if Starfleet screws up?

Doesn't the Federation also lose "moral credibility" if it ceases to exist?

Starfleet is founded on a principle of non-aggression ...
Starfleet is the Federation's Rooseveltian "big stick." Starfleet is the organization within the Federation that breaks things and hurts people.

... and also correct not to interfere in the politics of foreign governments.
Section 31's actions to encourage the placement of a pro-Federation politician in the Romulan government was in the best interests of the Federation.

You look after your own first.

All in all, nicely said, and I agree, except for the 'big stick' comment, yes, there is that aspect, but "starfleet's mission has always been one of peace" we should never lose sight of that.
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Old March 23 2014, 07:41 AM   #17
Seventh White Boomer
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

The only chance I can see for the Feds to win on their own is if they mined the wormhole immediately after the attempt to blow up Bajor's sun. I'd question whether the Dominion or the Cardassians would really be ready to prosecute a war at that point. Sure they kicked the Klingons out, but there is a good chance the Klingons were not ready for high intensity conflict (or maybe even knew the Jem'Hadar were there is force) and it is possible their shields didn't work against Dominion weapons either.

Actually, that might be an issue for the Feds to at that point. Given Weyoun's surprise in "Call to Arms" and the fact that Federation ships are "disappearing" on patrol of the Cardassian border an episode before in "In the Cards" it might be that the shield breakthrough didn't happen until "Call to Arms" or just before it. You can have all the Defiants crewed by holograms or AI computers but if they can't take a hit they are worthless.
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Old March 23 2014, 12:42 PM   #18
JarodRussell
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

LOL, you can't just abandon your ideals during wartime, genocide the crap out of your enemy, and then return to your “ideals“ like nothing happened.
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Old March 23 2014, 12:45 PM   #19
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
LOL, you can't just abandon your ideals during wartime, genocide the crap out of your enemy, and then return to your “ideals“ like nothing happened.
Straw-man.
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Old March 23 2014, 01:55 PM   #20
Merry Christmas
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
LOL, you can't just abandon your ideals during wartime, genocide the crap out of your enemy, and then return to your “ideals“ like nothing happened.
There are example of that (not genocide) happening. During the American civil war the President "turned off" the writ of habeas corpus, an important legal protection. Following the war it was switched back on.

When wartime escalates into fighting for survival, a different rule book comes off the shelf.

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Old March 23 2014, 11:19 PM   #21
PhoenixClass
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

T'Girl wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
This neocon fantasy ...
Better them, than the liberal lack of intelligencia.
Wow. I got to hand it to you, T'Girl, you rarely disappoint.


Regarding the OP: I think your most interesting point is about Section 31. I disagree with you that Starfleet and/or the Federation should actively use them. There are obvious moral implications. Also, relying on such people empowers them, and such people inevitably corrupt the institutions they claim they serve. Sooner or later they would start preying on the Federation itself to protect their own power.
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Old March 25 2014, 05:22 AM   #22
-Brett-
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Victory Is Life wrote: View Post
Fleets of Defiants
The Defiant's power is mostly the stuff of fanwank. The show doesn't actually depict it as being that impressive. Sure, it can outperform ships of a similar size, but anything much bigger, even if it's an 80 year old design, and the Defiant has problems.
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Old March 27 2014, 01:57 AM   #23
Shawnster
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Highly doubtful, if not completely preposterous.

Phase cloaks - illegal (unless they wanted to face a two-side war against the Romulans as well)
So? And assassinating Romulan Senator Vreenak wasn't illegal? Plus, as we saw in "The Search" the Romulans were willing to negotiate an agreement where the Federation could legally use cloaking technology.

M5 computers - 100 years out of date (also hugely flawed at its conception)
And 100 years of R&D should have been able to overcome some of the issues, like not using a mentally damaged individual as a template for the M5 (or would that be M10 at that point).

Or, what about armies of androids? Besides Data we had androids from Planet Mudd and also the Andromedan Androids from "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" Or combine these technologies for advanced starship cybernetics.
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Old March 31 2014, 06:56 PM   #24
Jedi_Master
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

To win the war, the Federation had to engage in lots of unethical and illegal activity. Wars are not won by following the rules.

For example, if Section 31 had not infected the Founders with the "can't change shape" virus, then Odo would not have been cured, and used that cure to convince the "female" Founder that solids were trustworthy, which allowed her to order the Dominion forces to surrender, instead of fighting to the last man, and causing enormous losses for the Alliance "victors".

I think the argument on this thread about WHAT kind of illegal and unethical activities the Federation "could have" partaken in is very silly. For the purposes of the story, the war needed to be a few seasons long, so that we could see the effects of the war on the main characters. All any of the techonobabbley weapons and strategies offered by some of the posters would have led to a few episodes of massive spacebattles and destruction, a few more to deal with the aftermath, and then a few more seasons of dull "alien of the week" stories or Bajoran religious/political disharmony stories. Meh

The only exception to this would be the phase - cloak. First of all we do not know if Starfleet would ever be able to stabilize the darn thing in the first place. Second, even if they were able to manufacture, mass produce, and mass install the cloak on all Starfleet vessels, it would still lead to the Romulans entering the war - but as the Federation's enemy. No phase cloak would be able to overcome that strategic disadvantage.
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Old April 2 2014, 11:55 PM   #25
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Jedi_Master wrote: View Post

The only exception to this would be the phase - cloak. First of all we do not know if Starfleet would ever be able to stabilize the darn thing in the first place. Second, even if they were able to manufacture, mass produce, and mass install the cloak on all Starfleet vessels, it would still lead to the Romulans entering the war - but as the Federation's enemy. No phase cloak would be able to overcome that strategic disadvantage.
I think the Phase-cloak would've broken the Dominion's back regardless of who they were allied with. Ships can pass undetected anywhere and through solid objects. If you could miniaturize it, you could plant destructive devices within the core of Dominion worlds without them even noticing...

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Old April 4 2014, 03:04 AM   #26
Jedi_Master
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

I don't agree. Unless Starfleet spent at least two years prior to the war manfacturing, testing, and installing the cloaks PRIOR to the war, there would simply not be enough time to gain strategic value from the phase cloak before the Dominion and Romulans and possibly even the Klingons rained hell on them.
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Old April 9 2014, 07:15 PM   #27
Vandervecken
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Melakon wrote: View Post
Phased cloaks are banned by treaty.
Which treaty any sane government would have said adios to in the face of the Dominion threat. Or the Borg, for that matter.

And--as far as I'm concerned--phasing isn't cloaking. Not going to get into that again in this thread, but it isn't cloaking any more than a replicator is a warp drive.

And the phase cloak doesn't need to be stable to be adapted as a phasing weapon. Then that wholly inapplicable treaty would never have applied even in the minds of folk who think laws and treaties aren't open to interpretation.
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Old April 9 2014, 07:22 PM   #28
Vandervecken
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Jedi_Master wrote: View Post
To win the war, the Federation had to engage in lots of unethical and illegal activity. Wars are not won by following the rules.

For example, if Section 31 had not infected the Founders with the "can't change shape" virus, then Odo would not have been cured, and used that cure to convince the "female" Founder that solids were trustworthy, which allowed her to order the Dominion forces to surrender, instead of fighting to the last man, and causing enormous losses for the Alliance "victors".
I wouldn't even call the Founder plague unethical. What makes it unethical? The Federation and Dominion weren't cosignatories to any kind of document that ruled out biological weaponry.
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Old April 9 2014, 07:24 PM   #29
Vandervecken
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
This neocon fantasy ...
Better them, than the liberal lack of intelligencia.
Wow. I got to hand it to you, T'Girl, you rarely disappoint.

Yes, so unlike JirinPanthosa's rational criticism above.
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Old April 9 2014, 07:27 PM   #30
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
LOL, you can't just abandon your ideals during wartime, genocide the crap out of your enemy, and then return to your “ideals“ like nothing happened.
Yes, you can.
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