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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 22 2014, 12:17 AM   #1
Victory Is Life
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Just like the title says.

My contention is that between phase cloak, M5 computers, Deflector Phasers, Fleets of Defiants, and Federation Orbital Defense Platforms, Tactical and Command EMH's for crewing battleships in lieu of Humans, and as many human bodies directed to ship building as possible, Starfleet would have won the Dominion War and any subsequent conflict.

If Starfleet only changed ideals during wartime, and kept a consistent state of readiness, they could preserve their primary edict without compromising peace keeping and exploration. I mean, they already have section 31 for this purpose, so why not go full bore in a dire situation.

FIrst time poster, btw. Please feel free to discuss.
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Old March 22 2014, 01:41 AM   #2
Victory Is Life
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Come on, guys, nothing?
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Old March 22 2014, 01:47 AM   #3
Melakon
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Phased cloaks are banned by treaty.

The M-5 multi-tronic computer had a serious design flaw making it unsuitable.

The only Command Hologram known to exist is thousand of lightyears away in the Delta Quadrant.
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Old March 22 2014, 01:53 AM   #4
Victory Is Life
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

I was giving examples. Do you not think that the M-5 could have been field worthy in 100 years of RnD? If the Rommies could lend a cloaking device to the Feds for missions to the GQ for the Defiant, do you not think that they would disregard the Treaty of Algeron for the benefit of the AQ and even suggest the Feds use their supertech when their own ships were casualties of the conflict? Starfleet wasnt stupid enough to know that early generation EMH's could be used for Dilithium mining without knowing that the Daystrom Institute could have adapted them for command and starship operations.
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Old March 22 2014, 02:55 AM   #5
SchwEnt
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

I suppose it's true.

On a smaller scale, this is the same issue that could have solved the problems in several eps.

Security deactivation of weapons, transporter inhibitors, subcutaneous transponders, kironide, transporter duplication, and so on. Many one-time treknobabble ideas that are never brought up again, which could eliminate plot issues down the road.

Similarly, these same ideas could have also solved larger issues in the Dominion War. The Feds could have gone all out--use phase cloaks, revive Genesis technology, Omega particle energy, psionic warfare, transporter warfare, genetic manipulation, biogenic weaponry, you name it...

But what lengths would the Federation go to? What lines would be crossed? Maybe leave it to Section 31.
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Old March 22 2014, 03:03 AM   #6
Victory Is Life
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Section 31 didnt do the job very well. A simple library of innovation in the Daystrom Institute would have solved all of these problems. Shelving a viable technology in the annals of warfare would be indicative of the US Military mothballing the A-10 Warthog Thunderbolt. It has no equal in close-air support and is the friend of the infantryman. The Tank Killer. No logical Military Commander would authorize such a foolhardy move.Starfleet would keep every viable advantage on the shelf until treaty restrictions took a backseat to military superiority. The Dominion War consumed untold lives, I am hard-pressed to believe that Starfleet would place armistice integrity over the lives of their dedicated conscripts...
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Old March 22 2014, 03:19 AM   #7
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Victory Is Life wrote: View Post
[...]The Dominion War consumed untold lives, I am hard-pressed to believe that Starfleet would place armistice integrity over the lives of their dedicated conscripts...
The prime directive, treaties, etc - The federation puts quite a few things above the lives of starfleet personnel - and even its own security.
As for technology - The federation views quite a few technologies as forbidden, 'immoral' because having/using them would be 'playing god' - ranging from genetic engineering to the transportation technology of the 'demons of air and darkness'.
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Old March 22 2014, 03:29 AM   #8
Victory Is Life
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Victory Is Life wrote: View Post
[...]The Dominion War consumed untold lives, I am hard-pressed to believe that Starfleet would place armistice integrity over the lives of their dedicated conscripts...
The prime directive, treaties, etc - The federation puts quite a few things above the lives of starfleet personnel - and even its own security.
As for technology - The federation views quite a few technologies as forbidden, 'immoral' because having/using them would be 'playing god' - ranging from genetic engineering to the transportation technology of the 'demons of air and darkness'.
This is the level of discourse that I was hoping for. I will cite an example from 'conundrum', the TNG episode where a Sattarran was able to wipe the ent-d crew's memories. For a time, he was able to convince a morally superior starfleet crew manning the flagship to commit genocide, despite the obvious military superiority. I believe that it is simply poor governance that hinders the federation, and by extension, starfleet from effectively achieveing their goals, which are essentially divine, when compared to everyone else in the Milky Way, circa 24th century.

Why do your race and society a disservice by restricting your ability to survive and protect yourselves in a clear wartime situation, but revert to humanitarian ideal when no one thretaens your borders. I dont see the problem. As long is the line between diplomacy and military conquest remains clear.
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Old March 22 2014, 06:54 AM   #9
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Highly doubtful, if not completely preposterous.

Phase cloaks - illegal (unless they wanted to face a two-side war against the Romulans as well)
M5 computers - 100 years out of date (also hugely flawed at its conception)
Deflector Phasers - ??? (they had phasers and they had deflector shields but never heard of this technobabble before)
Fleets of Defiants - They went into mass production during the war anyway
Federation Orbital Defence Platforms - These would be satellites for the defence of planets from orbit, not much use when fighting sectors away from UFP worlds in open space
Tactical and Command EMHs - Holograms are only as good as they are programmed, they don't have the experience, imagination or good-old gut feelings the sentient being do. Not to mention the memory and processing power the ships computer would need, the energy drain it would lead to, the possibility of system corruption or hacking, or the whole thing just breaking down. They are tools to be used in emergencies, not to be relied on to crew ships (also the UFP has 150+ member worlds, Starfleeters aren't all human). Seeing as how the Mark-1 was considered a failure and put to mining, why not wipe its "personality" and reprogram it to go and build ships, putting proper crews where they belong.

Starfleet has a military structure and is responsible for the defence of the Federation against aggressors, but that is only part of what it does. Having them geared up for war all the time flies in the face of there mandate to explore space, seek out new races, and the general optimism for all our future holds that Star Trek is about.

When the war started, Starfleet did throw everything they had at it, but still wasn't enough in the face of an enemy that had a tactical advantage, seemed capable of building ships quickly, could grow new troops in days, and had a race capable of infiltrating Starfleet and the UFP at any level to spy on them and destabilise their entire wartime operations.

Besides, when fighting a war, leaders want to put themselves into as good a position as possible to ensure victory--which is why governments make treaties and defence pacts in the first place. The UFP/Klingon alliance makes huge sense, and when Sisko does whatever he needs to in order to bring the Romulans into the fight as well it puts them in a better position yet again.
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Old March 22 2014, 05:42 PM   #10
DS9forever
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Sisko says in "In Purgatory's Shadow" "Right now, there's no way we can beat the Dominion".
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Old March 22 2014, 06:14 PM   #11
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

This neocon fantasy that the best way to be secure is to exercise facism-level military dominance over the galaxy is self serving nonsense that does more harm than good in the long term. Section 31 may claim to be protecting Starfleet and may even gain them some short term benefits, but from what we've seen of their plans if just one part of them goes wrong and anything gets found out it could be a full scale war, and if any part of it gets discovered the Federation loses its moral credibility.

It is true that Starfleet sacrificed military-readiness because of a false sense of security. But being prepared for conflict doesn't mean sacrificing on principle, it just means not being a fool. Of course they should have had a stronger military, they only built the Defiants because Q gave them a little hint that they were in deep trouble.

Starfleet is founded on a principle of non-aggression, and they're correct to choose a peaceful resolution whenever one is available, and also correct not to interfere in the politics of foreign governments. Just so long as they are strong enough to defend themselves when necessary, and the Borg threat certainly led them to take defense of the realm very seriously.
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Old March 22 2014, 06:23 PM   #12
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

If Star Trek characters didn't suffer mass amnesia at the end of every episode, Starfleet would have powers almost on par with the Q. Telekenetic powers from "Plato's Stepchildren", Godmode transportes used to beam anywhere (even into alternate realities), xerox entire armies and cure all illness (and by the time of Nemesis, they're making transporters barely bigger than a rank pip!), super armour and weapon mods from Voyager.... who could stand against them?
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Old March 22 2014, 07:23 PM   #13
-Brett-
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

Personally, I think these characters are crazy to trust EMH's with medical issues. I certainly wouldn't trust them with weapons of mass destruction.
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Old March 22 2014, 11:12 PM   #14
BillJ
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
This neocon fantasy that the best way to be secure is to exercise facism-level military dominance over the galaxy is self serving nonsense that does more harm than good in the long term.
I think you could argue that the Federation not using all means at its disposal would be a disservice to its citizens. Commodore Decker says in "The Doomsday Machine" that the primary duty of a Starfleet officer is to protect Federation lives and citizens.

Commodore Decker wrote:
Our primary duty is to maintain life and safety of Federation planets. Do you deny that?
In a universe where there are civilizations that make Starfleet look like they're still using sticks and stones, it would be silly not to study and use materials that can put them on more level footing with those civilizations. Certainly there are ethical considerations, but you can't allow those considerations to stand in the way of protecting your citizens.
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Old March 23 2014, 03:48 AM   #15
T'Girl
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Re: Feds Could Have Won The DW On Their Own

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
This neocon fantasy ...
Better them, than the liberal lack of intelligencia.

... that the best way to be secure is to exercise facism-level military dominance over the galaxy ...
Not the galaxy, but certainly within the Federation's borders.

Section 31 may claim to be protecting Starfleet ...
No, they claim to protect the Federation itself.

... but from what we've seen of their plans if just one part of them goes wrong and anything gets found out it could be a full scale war ...
How is that any different than if Starfleet screws up?

... and if any part of it gets discovered the Federation loses its moral credibility.
Doesn't the Federation also lose "moral credibility" if it ceases to exist?

Starfleet is founded on a principle of non-aggression ...
Starfleet is the Federation's Rooseveltian "big stick." Starfleet is the organization within the Federation that breaks things and hurts people.

... and also correct not to interfere in the politics of foreign governments.
Section 31's actions to encourage the placement of a pro-Federation politician in the Romulan government was in the best interests of the Federation.

You look after your own first.

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