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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old March 21 2014, 10:09 PM   #31
bbjeg
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

^I think a terabyte for each neuron should be able to at least simulate thought (100 billion terabytes). In turn, I assume a machine capable of copying each neuron could flare those parts of the brain to simulate a memory. I imagine something like that would be used to upload yourself to an online virtual realm (from games to chat rooms to surfing) and you could experience the five senses too. The upload would control the program and the brain would be the processor.

The upload wouldn't really be you though. It'll just respond the way you will to certain stimuli.
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Old March 22 2014, 01:41 AM   #32
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

Well that's my point. The machine will mimic this information and stimuli responce as if it was you, eventually acting almost identically. But you're own brain is still wired to your body and working away, so you're still "in it".

I still see no transfer of the original sentience from the organic body to the mechnical one.
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Old March 22 2014, 08:55 AM   #33
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

Even if I had the possibility I very likely wouldn't want to do so. Everyone has some dark points in their life they want to forget. Terrible mistakes, painful losses, things we are ashamed for. We do our best to wipe them out of our memories but they are stored in our brains and will inevitably come forward at the most inappropriate of times. I want them to die with me and not to live on for eons.
And the same goes for some very intimate memories I wouldn't make public even if it cost my life.
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Old July 10 2014, 09:34 PM   #34
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

Uh Oh, bad news for Rama's vacation plans.
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Old July 11 2014, 03:01 AM   #35
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

^I wish they went into more detail as to why they're against it.
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Old July 11 2014, 10:13 PM   #36
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

sojourner wrote: View Post
It won't be me. Only a copy.
And there are a dozen reasons why I would want to have a copy of myself in a supercomputer. There are a lot of things I want to see happen in the world and having a digital version of myself would allow the meat-version of me to focus on more personal issues while super-me explores my loftier ambitions.

Also: I'm not a religious person or anything, but I feel it might be good idea to save my soul.
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Old July 11 2014, 10:24 PM   #37
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

RAMA wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
article wrote:
We're still decades — if not centuries — away from being able to transfer a mind to a supercomputer. [...] Here's why you should seriously consider uploading.
lulz.
He's being conservate, there have been some recent breakthroughs on this
I can actually say, without qualifiers and without equivocation, THERE HAVE BEEN NO BREAKTHROUGHS ON MIND-UPLOADING TECHNOLOGY. Not recently. Not in the past. Not ever. Brain mapping, functional neurology and neural topography do not have practical applications for brain uploading, as none of these technologies can actually emulate the processes they are used to analyze (IOW: you can take a recording of what a brain does, but you can't reproduce it independently). It is not something that is even remotely possible now because we do not even have a CONCEPT for a modeling technique that would make that work.

We're actually closer to developing FTL propulsion than we are to mind-uploading.

This is what the general consensus has been for years, with really no evidence to back it up
Actually it's pretty well reflected in twin studies. Two people with completely identical genetics will develop slightly different personalities simply due to their stimuli being slightly different. Their personalities WILL diverge since they cannot exchange and synchronize data between the two of them.

The same would be true of a hypothetical digitized brain. Since the original brain isn't destroyed in the process (why would it be?) then it's obvious that the uploaded copy is no more "you" than if you made a clone and gave it all of your memories. It's not you, it's a duplicate. Nor can you share the perspective of your duplicate, because your mind is still being generated by your brain while your duplicate's mind is generated by computer (and the duplicate can't share your perspective either).

Mind-uploading is potentially a way of creating very humanlike AIs or, at most, a way of imbuing computers with human drives and moral imperatives (see "The Ultimate Computer" or "Ghost in the Shell: Solid State Society") but it won't change the condition of the uploaders directly.
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Old July 11 2014, 10:31 PM   #38
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

bbjeg wrote: View Post
^I wish they went into more detail as to why they're against it.
They DID. They're against it because the project is using a huge amount of money for nebulous, abstract goals that may or may not actually benefit real scientists.

Not that I can know this for sure, but this is something scientists have been complaining about transhumanists for years. The lofty predictions of the Kurzweilian crowd usually involve drawing tenuous connections between completely unrelated technologies or discoveries, connections which never have any practical applications in the here-and-now.

The scientists wouldn't be complaining if this was an explicitly trans-humanist project drawing its funds strictly from trans-humanists. But it's dressed up like a genuine scientific project and therefore it should have genuine scientific applications. If it can't (or won't) be used for legitimate research into neurology, neuropathology, psychology or practical medical fields, the neurologists don't want to be a part of it and, more importantly, don't want Europe spending billions of dollars funding it.
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Old July 11 2014, 10:53 PM   #39
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

With that rationale, no one should have sailed from Europe to the Americas. Science back then said the earth was flat. Trying to sail around the world would be a waste of money, right?
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Old July 11 2014, 10:59 PM   #40
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
It won't be me. Only a copy.
And there are a dozen reasons why I would want to have a copy of myself in a supercomputer. There are a lot of things I want to see happen in the world and having a digital version of myself would allow the meat-version of me to focus on more personal issues while super-me explores my loftier ambitions.

Also: I'm not a religious person or anything, but I feel it might be good idea to save my soul.
It wouldn't be "super you". It would be "super copy of you at the time of transfer". That copy may achieve those loftier goals, but you'd just be living vicariously through the achievements of that copy.
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Old July 11 2014, 11:09 PM   #41
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

bbjeg wrote: View Post
With that rationale, no one should have sailed from Europe to the Americas. Science back then said the earth was flat. Trying to sail around the world would be a waste of money, right?
Wrong, especially if you're referring to Columbus. His mistake was using a wildly incorrect estimate of the Earth's size. But even the ancient Greeks knew the Earth was spherical.

The rationale Crazy Eddie was explaining is completely understandable when one realizes that modern science is a highly competitive endeavor. Peer review (although it has its faults) was set up to keep researchers focused and limited funding applied to studies that might actually be helpful.
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Old July 11 2014, 11:23 PM   #42
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

^But how can we really know if a study can be helpful without the study, especially in regards to all the things we don't know about the brain.
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Old July 12 2014, 07:24 AM   #43
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

bbjeg wrote: View Post
With that rationale, no one should have sailed from Europe to the Americas.
Actually that WAS the rationale that lead to the discovery of the Americas. Columbus wanted to find a trade route to India that wouldn't involve sailing around the notoriously stormy and shark-infested waters near the Cape of Africa. Knowing that the Earth was spherical (everyone knew that at the time) he assumed that if he traveled far enough west he would eventually arrive at India from the opposite direction. No one had previously attempted this voyage because 1) ocean-going vessels of previous eras never had the range to pull it off and 2) despite the common conception of maritime navigators being able to determine their location by tracking stars and complex geometry, they were actually REALLY bad at it and depended more on navigation by landmarks, such as island formations, shorelines and recognized currents. Traveling across open ocean is something most sailors tried to avoid because it was really easy to get lost.

Columbus' only mistake was in drastically under-estimating the size of the Earth. It wasn't for another several decades that it was learned that the land Columbus discovered was nowhere near India after all.

Science back then said the earth was flat.
No it didn't.

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^But how can we really know if a study can be helpful without the study, especially in regards to all the things we don't know about the brain.
Because only a SCIENTIFIC study would be useful in the pursuit of actual SCIENCE, which is basically the neurologists' complaint. They're taking issue with the fact that Europe is spending an assload of money on what may turn out to be a trans-humanist art project, which would actually cause more harm than good when it comes to real scientists trying to get funding for similar non-bullshit projects.

To use your Columbus example: a scientific study on 15th century sailing ships is a lot more useful than, say, a photographic study, even if the latter produces way more interesting pictures. In the same vein, a scientific experiment -- which the human brain project was originally supposed to be -- would be a lot more useful than a study.
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Old July 12 2014, 07:33 AM   #44
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

sojourner wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
It won't be me. Only a copy.
And there are a dozen reasons why I would want to have a copy of myself in a supercomputer. There are a lot of things I want to see happen in the world and having a digital version of myself would allow the meat-version of me to focus on more personal issues while super-me explores my loftier ambitions.

Also: I'm not a religious person or anything, but I feel it might be good idea to save my soul.
It wouldn't be "super you". It would be "super copy of you at the time of transfer". That copy may achieve those loftier goals, but you'd just be living vicariously through the achievements of that copy.
All true. I'm perfectly comfortable with that.
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Old July 12 2014, 10:24 AM   #45
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Re: Uploading yourself can be fun, aka....

While the notion of time uploading itself is crazy, I find the claim that the uploaded copy is not you to be unsupported by science and a vain exercise in self-importance. What we know about our consciousness is that the information stored and processed in our neurons. The matter composing it makes a difference as much as it governs the way the processing happens, but there is no evidence of you being tied to these particular bits of matter, or of there being an independent soul. As far as our knowledge goes, if you replaced all the matter in you with identical but different atoms, you'd still be the same person. And it doesn't have to be completely identical, as you yourself aren't completely identical to what you were some time ago. The problem with uploading your mind to a computer is that there would have to be some unprecedented and presently unthinkable breakthrough that would get you close to having an identical copy, if such a thing is even physically possible or practical. And worse, if you do get close to identical, but not close enough, that would qualify as torture.

Now of course, mind uploading itself is a vain exercise in self-importance. You leave enough parts of yourself behind by making a difference in the world. Teaching your kids, changing the lives of the people close to you, or if you're extremely lucky leaving inventions, written works and art behind or even being personally remembered. That's already more than the world needs. If you are that important, one day someone who thinks similar to you will get born, will get inspired by your work, and will carry it on, and do so better than an ageing disintegrating digital brain will. If you aren't that important, you lived your life, you left your small footprint, why do you want to extend it beyond that – what makes you more special than all the other people who are like you who will always be there?

I personally don't want some very old me who can't deal with the future world and can't contribute to be put in a computer. The years would have changed me to the point that this guy won't even be me any more, and likewise he won't care for the continued existence of this digital brain which will also change quickly from what he is. What will I do in that computer really? Complain that they are ruining the world by polygamous marriage and changing the versioning scheme of the Linux kernel again? I think Cleverbot can do that.
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