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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old March 20 2014, 10:58 PM   #211
Set Harth
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
It was never about a face change, it was about a change of ethnicy.
I'm not sure Khan's ethnicity was ever established clearly anyway.
It was vague, at best, and haphazardly done. Khan's entire back-story in "Space Seed" consisted of not much more than a couple of lines - supposition and broad general statement, mostly, and much of that was later ignored or rewritten for TWoK.
How was any of it "rewritten" for TWOK? At best it was left unmentioned, but that's not the same as rewriting it.
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Old March 21 2014, 12:40 AM   #212
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Going from a product of selective breeding to a product of genetic engineering is a pretty big rewrite.
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Old March 21 2014, 12:43 AM   #213
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

thumbtack wrote: View Post
Going from a product of selective breeding to a product of genetic engineering is a pretty big rewrite.
Yeah, like... anyone... noticed that.

Like I stated before, if you were able to show me that any of these fished for in hindsight complaints about TWOK showed up in at least one review at the time of TWOK's release, I consider accepting it as legitimate argument. But until that, I state that nobody even noticed that and that it wasn't an issue at all. Nobody went out of TWOK thinking "Dude, they totally whitewashed Khan!" or "Dude, they changed his entire backstory!" because the writers actively didn't. People went out thinking "Dude, Chekov had never met Khan!" and "Dude, was Carol that blond technician?!"
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Old March 21 2014, 01:07 AM   #214
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Well, I was 3 at the time but we've all been told by our elders that negative reviews of TWOK were as few and far between as negative reviews for STID.

And, in both cases, came primarily from fans.
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Old March 21 2014, 01:08 AM   #215
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
thumbtack wrote: View Post
Going from a product of selective breeding to a product of genetic engineering is a pretty big rewrite.
Yeah, like... anyone... noticed that.
Indeed. Not to mention that "selective breeding" and "genetic engineering" are not incompatible.

Of all the forms of continuity tailgunning, "but TWOK did it too" is so very often the wrongest and lamest. (Closely matched by the equally silly "you're just like the crazy fans who hated TWOK!!!")
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Old March 21 2014, 12:43 PM   #216
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
thumbtack wrote: View Post
Going from a product of selective breeding to a product of genetic engineering is a pretty big rewrite.
Yeah, like... anyone... noticed that.

Like I stated before, if you were able to show me that any of these fished for in hindsight complaints about TWOK showed up in at least one review at the time of TWOK's release, I consider accepting it as legitimate argument. But until that, I state that nobody even noticed that and that it wasn't an issue at all. Nobody went out of TWOK thinking "Dude, they totally whitewashed Khan!" or "Dude, they changed his entire backstory!" because the writers actively didn't. People went out thinking "Dude, Chekov had never met Khan!" and "Dude, was Carol that blond technician?!"
I don't think they used the term 'Whitewashed' in that way when TWOK was released.

And I think 'genetically engineered' is just updating the Khan story for the 21st century. The details are just changed - not the intention. Genetic engineering wasn't dreamed of realistically in the 60s or 80s.
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Old March 21 2014, 12:52 PM   #217
F. King Daniel
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
thumbtack wrote: View Post
Going from a product of selective breeding to a product of genetic engineering is a pretty big rewrite.
Yeah, like... anyone... noticed that.

Like I stated before, if you were able to show me that any of these fished for in hindsight complaints about TWOK showed up in at least one review at the time of TWOK's release, I consider accepting it as legitimate argument. But until that, I state that nobody even noticed that and that it wasn't an issue at all. Nobody went out of TWOK thinking "Dude, they totally whitewashed Khan!" or "Dude, they changed his entire backstory!" because the writers actively didn't. People went out thinking "Dude, Chekov had never met Khan!" and "Dude, was Carol that blond technician?!"
As said way upthread, no home video, no easy screencaps, no transcript sites, direct comparisons weren't possible the way they are today.

I wonder how long it was between the last rerun of "Space Seed" and the debut of WoK?
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Old March 21 2014, 01:36 PM   #218
thumbtack
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

An occasionally pompous abuse of the English language won't transform the definition of duplicity. Reasonably equivalent standards should be applied to both universes if one hopes to avoid the appropriate appellation.

Imagine an anonymous and presumably grown man giving the same three reasons for hating Abrams Trek that he gave for loving First Contact. Should such a man be taken seriously?

I'll continue to tailgun the continuity wherever I encounter continuity based bias.
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Old March 21 2014, 03:37 PM   #219
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I wonder how long it was between the last rerun of "Space Seed" and the debut of WoK?
Since it was in syndication, the chances are that somewhere it played within days. And a small portion of fans may have had VCRs or other technology capable of recording. If comparisons were to be made, it was definitely possible.

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
And I think 'genetically engineered' is just updating the Khan story for the 21st century. The details are just changed - not the intention. Genetic engineering wasn't dreamed of realistically in the 60s or 80s.
Genetic engineering was the update in TWOK.
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Old March 21 2014, 04:26 PM   #220
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

thumbtack wrote: View Post
Reasonably equivalent standards should be applied to both universes if one hopes to avoid the appropriate appellation.
Well, going by this I suppose I can trust you to know about "pompous abuse of the English language." But desperate attempts to pretend equivalence where none exists should be called out for what they are. "Ricardo Montalban was white* so what's the big deal" and "they totes rewrote Khan in TWOK*" are perfect examples of this.

* On account of he wasn't, and they didn't (CommishSleer has it right about the latter), and those are sort of problems for claiming that he was and they did.

I'll continue to tailgun the continuity wherever I encounter continuity based bias.
And presumably you'll continue to completely miss the mark in doing so, and continue wondering why your arguments fail to impress.
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Old March 22 2014, 02:25 AM   #221
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
And I think 'genetically engineered' is just updating the Khan story for the 21st century. The details are just changed - not the intention. Genetic engineering wasn't dreamed of realistically in the 60s or 80s.
Genetic engineering was the update in TWOK.
Well ahem my point still stands. Even if my failing memory doesn't. I don't care whether they said it in the 80s or 2010s.
If they update certain bits for current scientific thinking I'm not getting all upset.
Even though selective breeding seems more deliciously sinister than genetic engineering.

Last edited by M'Sharak; March 22 2014 at 02:57 AM. Reason: quote tag repair
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Old March 23 2014, 10:02 AM   #222
Belz...
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

BigJake wrote: View Post
However clear or unclear the specifics of his ethnicity may not be at any point, he is always named Khan Noonien Singh, a name with conspicuously South Asian resonance.
The name comes with the religion, not the ethnicity.

I'll also remind you that the whole thing is a mixup of names from all over the place.
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Old March 23 2014, 12:08 PM   #223
F. King Daniel
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

BigJake wrote: View Post
However clear or unclear the specifics of his ethnicity may not be at any point, he is always named Khan Noonien Singh, a name with conspicuously South Asian resonance. That's why even non-Trekkie audience members were able to twig to the oddness of his being played by a white guy. So this really strikes me as being a bit of a dodge.
And when Noonien Soong turned out to be a white American in TNG...?

(IIRC, he's described as Asian in the TNG Officer's Manual, which pre-dates the decision to have Brent Spiner play most of Data's family)
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Old March 23 2014, 11:11 PM   #224
BigKrampus
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Belz... wrote: View Post
The name comes with the religion, not the ethnicity.
This is another weak dodge of a kind we've already seen multiple times in this very thread. The religion is overwhelmingly identified with the ethnicity and we all know that, okay? Can we please just dispense with the constantly-revolving carousel of evasive bull?

If you choose as a fan to rationalize it in this or that way then cool, whatever works for you. Certainly it's possible for many things to happen to race and ethnicity and the fortunes of names. But you don't get on the strength of any such rather tenuous fanwank to pretend that Khan was not originally sold as an exotic Asian character, or to tell other people that they're unreasonable to make the connection to that concept, or to claim that whitewashing is irrelevant. I think that's something you're just going to have to come to terms with.

IOW, rationalize things as you please, just don't be a dick about it.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote:
And when Noonien Soong turned out to be a white American in TNG...?
Also a bit odd, TBH, but at least that wasn't a character who'd already been established onscreen with a specifically Asian backstory, so there it's easier to pass over the name-ethnicity combination as a mere oddity. It doesn't attract the same attention as the conspicuous transformation of Khan for that reason.

Taking a cue from that, now for something completely different and hopefully a little more interesting than circular bickering about Benedict and Khan:

This article contains something I did not know about the name "Noonien Singh" and why it turned up in two different versions in Trek: apparently the name was a reference to a real-life friend of his named Kim Noonien Singh.

The article ultimately pulls the claim from IMDB and I don't know how credible it is, but surely this would be the place to find someone who can verify it?
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Old March 24 2014, 12:01 AM   #225
Hober Mallow
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Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
And when Noonien Soong turned out to be a white American in TNG...?

(IIRC, he's described as Asian in the TNG Officer's Manual, which pre-dates the decision to have Brent Spiner play most of Data's family)
I'm just glad Spiner didn't lobby to play Data's mother.
BigJake wrote: View Post
This article contains something I did not know about the name "Noonien Singh" and why it turned up in two different versions in Trek: apparently the name was a reference to a real-life friend of his named Kim Noonien Singh.

The article ultimately pulls the claim from IMDB and I don't know how credible it is, but surely this would be the place to find someone who can verify it?
Wasn't the name of Roddenberry's friend simply "Noonien Singh?"
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