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Old March 16 2014, 11:24 PM   #16
Guy Gardener
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

From Relativity.

BRAXTON: very carefully. The circumstances of your life are going to change in the next few years. You'll be sent into rehabilitation again, forced to retire, and it's all because of Voyager!
SEVEN: Captain I believe your future self is suffering from temporal psychosis.
BRAXTON: Well of course I am, you pedantic drone. The only way for me, for us, to recover is to obliterate Voyager from the timeline. That way, none of the events that caused this illness will have occurred.
JANEWAY: What events?
BRAXTON: Thirty years of exile on twentieth century Earth. The temporal inversion in the Takara sector! Three violations that I had to repair.
From Timeless.

EMH: Fifteen years?
KIM: Give or take a few weeks.
EMH: Where are we?
CHAKOTAY: In the Takara sector, just outside the Alpha quadrant.
EMH: The crew?
KIM: Except for us, dead.
The DTI from Deep Space Nine is a 24th century institution.

The two versions of a 29th century Temporal Integrity Commission from Voyager in Future's End were both 29th century institution, it's unclear if the USS Relativity was form either of those timelines despite it's dedication plaque listing it as a member of the temporal Integrity Commission.

The MANY unnamed 31st century Time Cop factions from Enterprise all pretending to be the same guy, are many mirror crosstime 31st institutions.
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Old March 17 2014, 02:58 AM   #17
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
It would be interesting to discuss the ethics of the Dept of Temporal Investigations. They've basically taken upon themselves to decide that the 'True timeline' is the one that would have happened if nobody ever travelled through time. Meaning they're assigning full value to one set of lives and lifetimes and no value to others.

But they didn't reset Timeless so apparently they like Voyager better than other people, so they aren't just picking the 'Natural' timeline.

So basically they're playing God.
The novel DTI: Watching the Clock covers this ground in part.
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Old March 17 2014, 02:59 AM   #18
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

hux wrote: View Post
Timeless resulted in Voyager continuing their voyage home so they had no reason to intervene.
The TIC did have to deal with that. Captain Braxton refers to the events of that episode as "the temporal inversion in the Takara sector" - the TIC had to clean up the mess that Harry et al. caused.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:33 PM   #19
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The TIC did have to deal with that. Captain Braxton refers to the events of that episode as "the temporal inversion in the Takara sector" - the TIC had to clean up the mess that Harry et al. caused.
What mess did they cause.....and what did Braxton have to do to clean it up?

Harry and Chakotay succeeded in restoring the timeline (they did the TIC's job for them) old Harry even sent a little message to young Harry at the end....even Janeway had a little peak at it) so i'm not sure how Braxton can claim they cleaned that up when...

1 - nothing needed to be cleaned up and
2 - if something did get cleaned up then why was old Harry still able to send a message to young Harry (not cleaned up very well i'd say)

Lets not forget, Braxton is suffering from temporal psychosis so he doesn't actually know his arse from his elbow....he' so messed up, he cant' even count

"(1)Thirty years of exile on twentieth century Earth. (2)The temporal inversion in the Takara sector! Three violations that I had to repair."
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Old March 17 2014, 10:33 PM   #20
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

Actually the real question is did he clean up Timeless before the episode started because it was a fantastic, possibly explosive clusterfuck before he smoothed off the edges and what we saw was what was permitted by the integrity commission, or did Braxton clean up Timeless AFTER Timeless and none of what we saw happened as we saw it, if it happened at all.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:35 PM   #21
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Actually the real question is did he clean up Timeless before the episode started because it was a fantastic, possibly explosive clusterfuck before he smoothed off the edges and what we saw was what was permitted by the integrity commission
That option would re-emphasize that the federation time police don't actually give a damn about the time line (since Voyager would have been destroyed without Harry and Chakotay's meddling with time) and they simply fix what suits their own version of history (so yes OP, they're just like Annorax)

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
or did Braxton clean up Timeless AFTER Timeless and none of what we saw happened as we saw it, if it happened at all.
So you're saying we saw a parallel universe episode?

This option would definitely explain why Braxton suffered from temporal psychosis...i'm amazed he wasn't sat in a pool of his own excrement just repeating the word..."wibble"
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Old March 18 2014, 12:13 AM   #22
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

The only difference between the Krenim and the TIC is the Krenim's default solution is to destroy civilizations and with the TIC, that's only the implicit result of their actions. Is one better than the other? Probably not.

I suppose you could argue that the temporal prime directive essentially says "Whatever events led up to the timeline as it exists at this moment, we're sticking with them." Which would explain why they might intervene in Future's End and Relativity and not in Timeless or Endgame. Which is really just as convenient as the original prime directive, as it says we can ignore the children who were never born because Admiral Janeway changed history but are allowed to preserve our own children.
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Old March 18 2014, 01:50 AM   #23
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

HUX, the 29th century from the beginning of Futures End believed in one inviolable time line... But the new 29th Century from the end of Futures Timeline believed in parallel timelines.

In Relativity, we saw the relativity watch from on high as Voyager was destroyed over and over and over again, and they kept trying to create the best time line to play on into the future.

Either Earth is temporally shielded in the future, or the Federation has migrated and colonized outside of time, so that they no longer have to be concerned with time trying to destroy their foundations and their rooftops.
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Old March 19 2014, 11:55 PM   #24
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

So Annorax reset the timeline, trying to find his way “back” to his original timeline.

Is this similar to what Chakotay/Kim do? The difference being that Chakotay/Kim are intentionally resetting to just before a specific and localized event and, except for everything that happens to/because of the Voyager crew, nothing changes in the rest of the galaxy--unlike Annorax’s wiping out entire civilizations.

Here’s my main questions, though: When Annorax screws up and wipes out a civilization, then tries again, does that civilization come back? If he comes back to a point in time “after” he’s wiped out that civilization, I’m assuming “no.” What if he goes back to the same instant (blink in, blink out?) or a split second earlier?
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Old March 20 2014, 12:20 AM   #25
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

Remember the feast Annorax made for Chuckles of all the cultures he had annihilated forever?

They were all gone for good.

Annorax doesn't time travel, well obviously he can time travel since he's been hammering at the same single year for 200 years, or his wife would have died of old age a 17 decades earlier if he had brought her back from non-existence shortly after they first used the weapon, when he is parked outside of time, then logically he should be able to enter back into time at whichever spot in future/history he feels like it, but Red chooses not to change time like that with his hands, moving shit around, when he can extract planets from time, and besides, he can't bring his wife back with regular time travel like that, because the weapon he's been using has been changing the shape of the universe 15 billion years back unto it's creation by GOD, and he can't get behind that just using his hands.

This episode was so poorly thought out that Annorax didn't even try to get behind Janeway to stop her getting temporal shields, even though temporal shields are "paradox proof" in so that it doesn't matter if she never got the shields, her continuity was fixed and unwavering as long as those shields held, but he could still attack her over and over again a minute after she got those shields from a thousand vectors.

Every time Annorax used the weapon, Janeway and her Voyager SMASHED into Janeway and Voyager that should have been in the new universe being recreated around them, and destroyed the indigenous Voyager and Janeway... You don't think that's awful? Well it's conceivably okay that one Janeway supersedes another, and one Janeway is as good as another, but what about the other 130 crewmen who are suddenly in space wondering what the hell happened to their ship because although there can only be one Voyager, it doesn't always enter into the new universe spacially where the native Voyager should be according to it's personal timeline.

(Sorry.)
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Old March 20 2014, 01:37 PM   #26
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Remember the feast Annorax made for Chuckles of all the cultures he had annihilated forever?
Which just revealed him to be a serial killer keeping trophies of his (enormous) victims. Annorax saying he was doing it ALL for his wife is like Walter White saying he was doing it all for his family, a morality badge to hide behind, hide from himself.
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Old March 20 2014, 06:20 PM   #27
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

Bullshit.

If Walter just had to cook Meth that was 99.99999999999999 percent pure to bring his wife back from the dead, it really would have been about Skylar.

You may be right if he got the ball and chain back, but her eye colour was wrong, and then we get to see if he says "Close enough" or not.
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Old March 21 2014, 02:24 AM   #28
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

propita wrote: View Post
So Annorax reset the timeline, trying to find his way “back” to his original timeline.

Is this similar to what Chakotay/Kim do? The difference being that Chakotay/Kim are intentionally resetting to just before a specific and localized event and, except for everything that happens to/because of the Voyager crew, nothing changes in the rest of the galaxy

How can one objectively say that? Your caveat "because of the Voyager crew" covers a wide swath of possibilities, from the potential of a missed encounter that the ship didn't make because of the distance they covered in their rejiggered jump to the unknowable impact that their awareness of the actions of their future benefactors might engender.


Needless to say, Chakotay and Hardass Kim weren't concerned, but there are any number of ways that they might have wrought less than salutary effects on a large
scale.


Thinking of this in terms of being a precursor to Admiral Janeway's strategem in Endgame, might one say that Harry actually made his mark by at least encouraging her to move forward with her plan by virtue of his example? Assuming that the events even occured that way in her timeline. Of course we all know that Janeway hardly needs any outside impetus to steam unalterably forward if she is convicted of the rectitude of her ideas!!
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Old March 21 2014, 01:16 PM   #29
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

I seriously doubt Walter knows Skylar's eye colour.

"What color are my eyes Walt. Tell me. Tell me. You DON'T KNOW do you."

"They're uh uh.."

:: stares at Skylar's sweater, what color would that sweater go with..::

"They're green."

"You're full of shit Walt."

Now was he full of shit because he is wrong or full of shit because she knows that he didn't know but has somehow deduced under pressure the correct answer. Not that it matters because no matter how right he is ultimately she knows he is full of shit and he knows she knows that and on and on for 5 seasons it goes.
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Old March 22 2014, 07:03 AM   #30
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Re: Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

Annorax was not trying to restore the timeline, and could not restore the timeline just be continually subtracting more and more matter, events, persons and confluences...

What he was trying to do was restore the borders of the Empire, and possibly the size of the population inside those Borders, no matter how unfamiliar and strange the history was that brought the Imperium to that familiar state as long as they dominate or decimate their neighbours.

Which is a lie Annorax tells the crew... He just wants his wife back.

Seriously though, what did he think was going to happen the first time they used the weapon? She could have survived and never met or fallen in love with him, or she did meet and fall in love with Annorax who is now just another dude hanging out in the new universe married to his wife.

Ridiculous that the leaders of the Krenim would sign off on this.

Being murdered as history rewrote itself.
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