RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 144,684
Posts: 5,686,958
Members: 25,658
Currently online: 352
Newest member: haostmuk

TrekToday headlines

Worf Vinyl Bust Bank
By: T'Bonz on Apr 27

Independent Star Trek Fan Film Awards Announced
By: T'Bonz on Apr 27

Vulcan Pays Tribute To Nimoy
By: T'Bonz on Apr 27

Rumor Mill: Star Trek 3 Filming Location
By: T'Bonz on Apr 27

Retro Review: Time and Again
By: Michelle on Apr 25

USS Enterprise Model To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Apr 24

Vulcan Nimoy Tribute
By: T'Bonz on Apr 24

Pegg Writing Kickass Role For Elba
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Galaxy Quest To Become A Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Mulgrew On Voyager Twentieth Anniversary
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 19 2014, 06:24 AM   #46
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
STAR TREK II did not seem to like being burdened with a cast of old people and went out of its way to emphasize it. In my view, this only distracted from the storytelling, not helped it. Yes, they're old, why are we harping on this? Do you want Kirk and company in these movies or not? What's the problem? I feel that TMP had it right, by touching on it, without harping on it. But that's me. It was enough to acknowledge the passing of time by not pretending Kirk could still pull women, like he used to. Or, indeed, at all. Even the rather plain whale biologist was like, "I'm not having this ..." and kissed him off, at the end. But they had to touch on it, because it's "dramatic" or whatever. I don't know ...
Agreed.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2014, 07:11 AM   #47
Synnöve
Lieutenant
 
Synnöve's Avatar
 
Location: PNW
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

This sounds like a giant case of "missing the point" as WOK isn't criticizing old age or begrudged to address it, but instead is a meditation on it. Considering Kirk was in his 50s it seemed appropriate and was executed perfectly as a fully rounded theme and part of Kirk's character development. Everyone gets old and their past comes back to the present when they age, be it a short lived relationship which brought about a son and family that could have been, a villain who holds the grudge, the experience of commanding a ship like few others can, all the times Kirk cheated death and felt it a certainty, all those times with Spock that lead to Kirk not being able to conceptualize a reality with out him. Aging, at it's core, is a change of life not unlike many others: you notice a change, you reason and feel out what it means to you, and work to accept it. This whole movie is primarily about Kirk coming to terms with change and not being afraid of it, something Khan could not do in the least despite his stated superiority to Kirk (in the end it killed him).

Those are the reasons it's continually brought up, because it's a major theme of the movie, and not a negative one either; note Kirk's disposition when he is talking Ms. Marcus about how he feels old and worn out vs. his disposition after Spockss death: "I feel young". Kirk has discovered the world anew and found a sunrise (just like the shot before hand instead of the darkness and confines of decrepitude he was certain he'd be shackled to, he has gained wisdom and is able take on life again (besting Khan, parting with Spock, making up with David, accepting change).

The fact that this is so incredibly clear while watching the film makes both your statements extremely baffling to me.
Synnöve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2014, 07:31 AM   #48
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

It shouldn't be baffling. The cast was only three years older than they were in TMP and there they were set to go on new adventures. Now along comes Meyer and Bennett ready to retire them in addition to all the other stuff they did.

Treating the characters that way also didn't work in context of people of the future supposedly living longer. Hell, in TNG Picard has to be pushing 60 and he certainly wasn't ready to park his ass in a rocking chair.

Part of the problem also stems from Trek being done on film. That medium doesn't allow for the kind of adventures you can have on television because you get a two hour film only every two or three years whereas on television you can get at least twenty adventures a season. The suspension of disbelief is easier on television because the characters age more gradually before your eyes.

Looking back the whole TWOK-TUC is a winding down and ending of the TOS crew after TMP promised a new beginning. I found that saddening.

I still do.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2014, 07:47 AM   #49
Synnöve
Lieutenant
 
Synnöve's Avatar
 
Location: PNW
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

Warped9 wrote: View Post
It shouldn't be baffling... Now along comes Meyer and Bennett ready to retire them in addition to all the other stuff they did.

It IS baffling because the entire point of the film is Kirk realizing he isn't ready to resign himself to desk flying and retirement, that he should be out there "hopping galaxies" as McCoy put it. "I feel young" does not equate to "lets retire".

Undiscovered Country is a rather different situation in this concern.
Synnöve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2014, 02:42 PM   #50
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

TWOK was a reset button and an unnecessary one. Kirk had already done desk duty and gotten his command back, but Meyer and Bennett wiped that away to do it again. Upon seeing this in 1982 my immediate reaction was

Of course that was along with me saying over the Enterprise being a training vessel.

Bennett had long wanted to do a Starfleet Academy type story and the beginning of TWOK retains a trace of that. Flash forward and they do it again in ST09 although Bennett had nothing to do with that.

I didn't care for it before, then and later and I still don't care for it.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2014, 05:04 PM   #51
J.T.B.
Commodore
 
J.T.B.'s Avatar
 
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

Warped9 wrote: View Post
TWOK was a reset button and an unnecessary one. Kirk had already done desk duty and gotten his command back, but Meyer and Bennett wiped that away to do it again.
That sounds to me like the same kind of argument often leveled against TMP. It assumes that some kinds of stories are off-limits to Trek. I disagree. The actors were older, the characters were older, it's human to think about one's mortality and place in the world at a certain age; why can't Star Trek address that in a story? And considering that the Spock character was intended to be killed off, a somewhat sober and reflective tone seems perfectly appropriate. It was an element of the picture that I thought was handled quite well.

I also like that it took on the issue like a stand-alone movie would, rather than a franchise "episode" following some sequel-making formula.
J.T.B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2014, 05:10 PM   #52
anh165
Commander
 
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

Synnöve wrote: View Post
This sounds like a giant case of "missing the point" as WOK isn't criticizing old age or begrudged to address it, but instead is a meditation on it. Considering Kirk was in his 50s it seemed appropriate and was executed perfectly as a fully rounded theme and part of Kirk's character development. Everyone gets old and their past comes back to the present when they age, be it a short lived relationship which brought about a son and family that could have been, a villain who holds the grudge, the experience of commanding a ship like few others can, all the times Kirk cheated death and felt it a certainty, all those times with Spock that lead to Kirk not being able to conceptualize a reality with out him. Aging, at it's core, is a change of life not unlike many others: you notice a change, you reason and feel out what it means to you, and work to accept it. This whole movie is primarily about Kirk coming to terms with change and not being afraid of it, something Khan could not do in the least despite his stated superiority to Kirk (in the end it killed him).

Those are the reasons it's continually brought up, because it's a major theme of the movie, and not a negative one either; note Kirk's disposition when he is talking Ms. Marcus about how he feels old and worn out vs. his disposition after Spockss death: "I feel young". Kirk has discovered the world anew and found a sunrise (just like the shot before hand instead of the darkness and confines of decrepitude he was certain he'd be shackled to, he has gained wisdom and is able take on life again (besting Khan, parting with Spock, making up with David, accepting change).

The fact that this is so incredibly clear while watching the film makes both your statements extremely baffling to me.
Excellent!
__________________
No animals were harmed during posting ...
anh165 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2014, 05:46 PM   #53
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
TWOK was a reset button and an unnecessary one. Kirk had already done desk duty and gotten his command back, but Meyer and Bennett wiped that away to do it again.
That sounds to me like the same kind of argument often leveled against TMP. It assumes that some kinds of stories are off-limits to Trek. I disagree. The actors were older, the characters were older, it's human to think about one's mortality and place in the world at a certain age; why can't Star Trek address that in a story? And considering that the Spock character was intended to be killed off, a somewhat sober and reflective tone seems perfectly appropriate. It was an element of the picture that I thought was handled quite well.

I also like that it took on the issue like a stand-alone movie would, rather than a franchise "episode" following some sequel-making formula.
Worked for you. Doesn't work for me. We'll have to agree to disagree.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2014, 03:41 AM   #54
TREK_GOD_1
Fleet Captain
 
TREK_GOD_1's Avatar
 
Location: Escaped from Delta Vega
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

Synnöve wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
It shouldn't be baffling... Now along comes Meyer and Bennett ready to retire them in addition to all the other stuff they did.

It IS baffling because the entire point of the film is Kirk realizing he isn't ready to resign himself to desk flying and retirement, that he should be out there "hopping galaxies" as McCoy put it. "I feel young" does not equate to "lets retire".
Exactly; he was older than he was in TMP, so his feelings would intensify as more years pass--particularly when (in TWOK), he's constantly reminded of his younger years: Khan, Carol, and in his present, an even younger officer in Saavik representing the Starfleet of tomorrow.

Just because Kirk dealt with the age matter in TMP (more about being out of touch with running a starship than anything else) does not mean he would not struggle with it in the years to come. It should be expected that he would be hit harder in the years after TMP.
__________________
"...to be like God, you have the power to make the world anything you want it to be."
TREK_GOD_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2014, 03:49 AM   #55
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

That isn't the point. The point is they threw away "the final frontier" type stories to mine the past for story. And it isn't until TFF that they get back to the kind of thing that could have followed TMP. And then in TUC they actually have them retiring.

TMP promised more "final frontier" and "strange new world" adventure and then we got nothing like that. I fell like the entire period of the '80s were wasted. After TMP the only "final frontier" type adventure we got was half-assed in TFF. Then it was left for TNG to pick up the fallen baton.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2014, 05:09 AM   #56
Campe98
Commodore
 
Campe98's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

Let me ask you a question...

What, ultimately, is the point of a movie? To entertain? Nope. You're wrong. It's to make money. Yes, the entertainment is a nice byproduct and I sure as hell do a lot to fill the pockets of people in the entertainment industry.

Looking at the audience between 1979-1991, what do audiences want? Well, one can argue that the 1970s were an amazing era of film. They have classics like The Godfather, Taxi Driverand Network. But in the 1980s (and I blame Star Wars for this, we start to see more action-adventure blockbusters. TMP was a product of its era. Yes, it was based on the success of Star Wars but it tried to remain truthful to the three years of TOS. And as I've grown up I've been able to appreciate TMP a lot more. It's now one of my favorites. And sure, TMP brought in the moviegoing public. Adjusted for inflation, it's #2 behind ST09. You can put that to a lot of points but probably mainly because people hadn't seen new shows in ten years. But when you look at it from a critical standpoint and a view from the general public? Well, they don't like it much.

So, yeah, Paramount showed Gene the door, slapped him with an Executive Consultant credit and have the reigns to Bennett and Meyer. Why? Because the moviegoing audience wanted 'splosions. They wanted conflict. Not people arguing on the bridge and looking out the viewscreen for ten minutes. They wanted a blockbuster. Well, the Trek movies didn't really reach that point more than a handful of times, but damnit, they tried.

Ultimately, the goal is to reach the moviegoing public. And the moviegoing public doesn't go for exploration. They want action. Like it or not. That's why the Abrams movies have been succesful. Oh, I also like those too.

But I hate TVH.
__________________
"Living is easy with eyes closed."
John Lennon, Strawberry Fields Forever
Campe98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2014, 05:13 AM   #57
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

And how does a "final frontier" and "strange new world" type story exclude action? TOS had loads of action.

Whatever.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2014, 05:23 AM   #58
Synnöve
Lieutenant
 
Synnöve's Avatar
 
Location: PNW
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

Campe98 wrote: View Post
Because the moviegoing audience wanted 'splosions. They wanted conflict. Not people arguing on the bridge and looking out the viewscreen for ten minutes. They wanted a blockbuster. Well, the Trek movies didn't really reach that point more than a handful of times, but damnit, they tried.
WOK wasn't a success because of action and explosions, it was a success because it stayed true to and elaborated upon the characters we knew from the show, because it was well paced with a good story, and a plethora of resonant themes that grew organically from the plot, and well placed action that furthered the story when it needed it.

Not that most casual movie go-er can articulate such things, but I'd argue TMP skates by more on it's level of visceral experience way more than WOK does. One need look at the new Trek movies, Transformers, and similar schlock to see movies that are a success more for the explosion a minute set pieces and editing than for a story and characters.

Last edited by Synnöve; March 20 2014 at 05:42 AM.
Synnöve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2014, 05:35 AM   #59
Campe98
Commodore
 
Campe98's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

You know what, I was expressing a point. In fact, I was actually playing devil's advocate. I think the fact that I stated that I liked TMP would have proven that. I would expect a little bit more mature of a response than "Whatever" in a Trek forum.

Guess if I don't hate Abrams Trek, I can't get that here.

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you, Synnöve.
__________________
"Living is easy with eyes closed."
John Lennon, Strawberry Fields Forever
Campe98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2014, 05:45 AM   #60
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

Campe98 wrote: View Post
You know what, I was expressing a point. In fact, I was actually playing devil's advocate. I think the fact that I stated that I liked TMP would have proven that. I would expect a little bit more mature of a response than "Whatever" in a Trek forum.

Guess if I don't hate Abrams Trek, I can't get that here.
It's been explained clearly and repeatedly so what else is there to say?

People seem locked into the idea it has to be either this or that and seemingly not able to see any other possibilities. Following up TMP doesn't automatically mean doing exactly what TMP did. TOS is full of different kinds of story ideas that didn't involve looking back and resurrecting something (or someone) done before.

Many of the ideas in TWOK still could have been done in a different way, but they chose not to do that. They chose to hit the reset button and erase/ignore what TMP had set up.

We're not going to agree on this. You're fine with what they did and I'm not.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:51 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.