RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,653
Posts: 5,428,632
Members: 24,810
Currently online: 587
Newest member: Damix


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 18 2014, 09:32 PM   #76
Vandervecken
Commander
 
Vandervecken's Avatar
 
Location: Kobold
Re: The Pegasus

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
Vandervecken wrote: View Post
In your hypothetical, the primary purpose of the device is to be used as a a weapon. In my cases, they're neither weapons (although they may have weapons applications, which are not covered under the treaty per se) nor defenses of any kind in their primary uses.
True, a cloak is not itself a weapon - yet the treaty still bans it. Weaponization is not the key factor; capability is.

Your lawyer in my hypothetical would argue that the flashlight gun is primarily a flashlight, at least until it is used primarily as a gun. So if secondary/primary purpose is the test, how do you determine which is which?
We don't disagree on this part--weaponization not being the key factor. However, we DO disagree on mere capability being the key factor, if that capability is just a side effect (I'm not even looking at intent). I pointed to weaponization because, in your scenario, the gun is bannable because it is a weapon. My lawyer can argue the specious idea that it's a flashlight first and a gun second, but his argument would remain specious. To a sensible majority of people, it's a weapon first.

I meant phasing is not primarily a weapon at first consideration, nor would Warp 10+ speed or better ship-building materials be weapons.

Of course the treaty bans actual cloaks for the Feds--but not, as I argue, tech that merely has a cloaking effect as a secondary result. I simply do not see the Federation entering into a treaty that gives the Romulans a de facto veto over the development of technology that might have cloaking as a side effect.

Dr. Genius invents Warp 10+ drive and the Feds ditch it because, somehow, as a side effect the ship using it is invisible to Romulan sensors? Not only would they not, they should not, not unless there is some specific codicil in the treaty covering secondary effects.
__________________
"Mu hah hah ha! And when they give me Battlestar Galactica that'll be the trifecta! My red matter and action movie scripts are unstoppable!"--JJ "Destroyer of Worlds" Abrams
Vandervecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18 2014, 09:49 PM   #77
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: The Pegasus

I doubt the Romulans would make the kind of distinction you're making. The end result is that the ship is cloaked. Hence whatever technology is leading the ship to be cloaked is a de facto cloaking device.

And I don't see how phasing technology isn't, if not a weapon, at least a system with obvious potential for weaponization. You're making whatever's phased invulnerable to weapons. Unless the phasing technology somehow didn't also act as a cloaking technology, you've just created a technology that could be used in an obvious first-strike attack.

Hell, it's Genesis all over again, where I respect the scientists' noble intentions but the potential for trouble is obvious.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18 2014, 09:59 PM   #78
PhoenixClass
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: The Pegasus

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
My lawyer can argue the specious idea that it's a flashlight first and a gun second, but his argument would remain specious. To a sensible majority of people, it's a weapon first.
But you are coming back to weapons again. The important point is not that the gun is a weapon, but that that the gun is banned.

Now, why do you think it is a specious argument?
PhoenixClass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18 2014, 10:44 PM   #79
Silvercrest
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Lost in Moria (Arlington, WA, USA)
Re: The Pegasus

Mojochi wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
So then Picard could refuse the help, bring up the shields to max, and cut himself out of the asteroid with phasers. Even with the danger of a collapse, it's not really a danger as I don't see a bunch of rocks causing any major issues with the shields up. Then to the Romulans, you just cut your way out of an asteroid, no phase cloak needed.
Worf suggests that, & (Per the usual) gets shot down, when Data says the asteroid's internal structure is unstable. Cutting into the blocked entrance with phasers could likely cause the entire chasm to collapse, crippling & burying the ship deep inside an asteroid about half the size of a small moon
Then just turn on the phase cloak. (I should have thought of this one years ago!)

If you can't fire while phased (which seems reasonable), then activate the cloak a split-second after firing torpedoes. If that's not enough time, then put the torpedoes on a delay. Make sure you blast your way out on the side of the asteroid opposite the position of the Romulan ship so they can't see you emerge. Then just sail out (whether the opening is actually large enough for you or not). The instant you emerge, turn off the cloak. Then contact the Romulans. "Oh, it seems we don't require your assistance after all. Yes, that is quite a small opening. We barely scraped through thanks to the skills of a gifted pilot. Anyway, have a nice day!
"Helm, warp three. Engage. And hurry."

There are probably several holes in this idea, but the fact is Picard wouldn't have done it anyway because he would have felt honor-bound to declare the situation to the Romulans.
Silvercrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2014, 03:32 AM   #80
Mojochi
Commodore
 
Mojochi's Avatar
 
Re: The Pegasus

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Then just turn on the phase cloak. (I should have thought of this one years ago!)

If you can't fire while phased (which seems reasonable), then activate the cloak a split-second after firing torpedoes. If that's not enough time, then put the torpedoes on a delay. Make sure you blast your way out on the side of the asteroid opposite the position of the Romulan ship so they can't see you emerge. Then just sail out (whether the opening is actually large enough for you or not). The instant you emerge, turn off the cloak. Then contact the Romulans. "Oh, it seems we don't require your assistance after all. Yes, that is quite a small opening. We barely scraped through thanks to the skills of a gifted pilot. Anyway, have a nice day!
"Helm, warp three. Engage. And hurry."

There are probably several holes in this idea, but the fact is Picard wouldn't have done it anyway because he would have felt honor-bound to declare the situation to the Romulans.
The flaw is that firing or mining with explosives in such a way would likely collapse the chasm. The Romulans' sensors are obviously going to notice that happen. You're still emerging miraculously & using the phase cloak to do it
Mojochi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2014, 03:41 AM   #81
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: The Pegasus

I would say the biggest hole in that theory is that the Romulans would likely notice the torpedo detonations. And with reasonable sensors, there's no way they wouldn't "see" the E emerge.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 05:44 AM   #82
CrazyMatt
Commander
 
CrazyMatt's Avatar
 
Location: Paradise
Re: The Pegasus

Komack wrote: View Post
Just watched "the Pegasus" (spelling?) for the first time in 20 years. I was bothered by Picard's decision to inform the Romulans of the cloaking technology - is it really the place of a Starship Captain to decide whether or not his superiors have made a sound/moral/correct decision in violating a treaty and developing a new technology?
I think technically speaking, that would have put Picard in violation of the treaty as well.
__________________
"You are speaking to a senior officer, Kirk!"
CrazyMatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 12:41 AM   #83
Vandervecken
Commander
 
Vandervecken's Avatar
 
Location: Kobold
Re: The Pegasus

DonIago wrote: View Post
I doubt the Romulans would make the kind of distinction you're making. The end result is that the ship is cloaked. Hence whatever technology is leading the ship to be cloaked is a de facto cloaking device.


.
Of course the Romulans would argue for as broad an interpretion of the treaty as possible. That doesn't mean their interpretation is controlling or, to the Federation, paramount. Your argument that a secondary effect is defining is not reasonable. I've given two very good examples of tech that might have that effect and that no sane person would consider a cloaking device. To advance the notion about warp 10+ tech or better ship materials would be disingenuous at best.

And here's another: the Iconian doors. Because you can get from point A to pojnt B without the Romulans knowing a thing about it. You've been effectively cloaked.

Does that really make sense to you? That if the Federation could master the tech of the Iconian doors, they would deny themselves that tech because the Romulans would object? Come, this is not reasonable.





And I don't see how phasing technology isn't, if not a weapon, at least a system with obvious potential for weaponization. You're making whatever's phased invulnerable to weapons. Unless the phasing technology somehow didn't also act as a cloaking technology, you've just created a technology that could be used in an obvious first-strike attack.
So? And the downside here is? The Treaty isn't a weapons ban or weapons development ban. It is specifically a cloaking ban. The Feds should be developing new weapons. The Borg are out there, the Dominion is out there, they better damn well be building some serious weaponry. Like maybe that soliton wave from New Ground. Whose primary purpose, by the way, was not weapon.

Impuise-only ships would be sitting ducks for warp-driven ships. But who would argue that warp drive's primary purpose is to be a weapon?

I would suggest that, at this point, the Romulans put their big boy pants on and develop better sensors.


Hell, it's Genesis all over again, where I respect the scientists' noble intentions but the potential for trouble is obvious.
Yep. Look where the wheel got us.


And Genesis can kiss my antimatter ass. No, seriously, I'll sling some warp cores at worlds and you can keep Genesis.
__________________
"Mu hah hah ha! And when they give me Battlestar Galactica that'll be the trifecta! My red matter and action movie scripts are unstoppable!"--JJ "Destroyer of Worlds" Abrams

Last edited by Vandervecken; March 25 2014 at 01:01 AM.
Vandervecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 03:20 AM   #84
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: The Pegasus

I have a feeling you're not going to be getting any calls asking for your expertise as a treaty negotiator.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 02:32 PM   #85
Vandervecken
Commander
 
Vandervecken's Avatar
 
Location: Kobold
Re: The Pegasus

DonIago wrote: View Post
I have a feeling you're not going to be getting any calls asking for your expertise as a treaty negotiator.
Yeah, I give in so easily.

On the other hand, the Romulans would love you.

Ah! Rommie spy! Damn Rommies!
__________________
"Mu hah hah ha! And when they give me Battlestar Galactica that'll be the trifecta! My red matter and action movie scripts are unstoppable!"--JJ "Destroyer of Worlds" Abrams
Vandervecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 06:41 PM   #86
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: The Pegasus

The Federation has a vested interest in peace, as has been made clear through the course of multiple series. By that standard it's in their own best interests to interpret the treaty liberally rather than aggravate the Romulans with some bullshit line (even if it were honest), that cloaking is just a "secondary effect".
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 06:59 PM   #87
Vandervecken
Commander
 
Vandervecken's Avatar
 
Location: Kobold
Re: The Pegasus

DonIago wrote: View Post
The Federation has a vested interest in peace, as has been made clear through the course of multiple series. By that standard it's in their own best interests to interpret the treaty liberally rather than aggravate the Romulans with some bullshit line (even if it were honest), that cloaking is just a "secondary effect".
What you're calling bullshit is what most of us name consensus reality. I notice that, not even once, have you dealt with the examples of technology I provided that are clearly not, first and foremost, cloaking tech, that may have a cloaking effect as an unintended secondary effect (yes, that is a reasonable phrase; an instance such as this one is exactly why we have such words in the English language as "primary" and "secondary")--except to say, somewhat hilariously, that yes, they would be considered cloaks. Warp 10+ drive that happens to have a cloaking effect is a cloaking device. Hoo boy.

This is because you can't deal with these examples--your inflexible position that the exact letter of a law (and a treaty is a kind of law) is open to no interpretation at all under peculiar circumstances is at odds with both the reality of court systems the world over and with international treaty arbitration.

It is clearly not in the Federation's best interests, however peace loving they may be (and it's worth pointing out that the Romulans are a party to the treaty as well, so, by your lights, they must be "peace loving" as well) to give the Romulans a ludicrous veto over any tech development that just might happen to produce something invisible to them. It doesn't even make sense in the context of a treaty designed, as you say, to preserve peace. That wouldn't be "peace"--it'd be surrender.

I see no evidence that either the Federation or Starfleet is ruled at its highest echelons by Pollyannas and fools. Only one or the either would bind themselves to an interpretation of a treaty so laughably broad it takes no actual note of the treaty's original purpose, and has it serve instead as some sort of combination one-sided disarmament and catchall technological repression agreement.
__________________
"Mu hah hah ha! And when they give me Battlestar Galactica that'll be the trifecta! My red matter and action movie scripts are unstoppable!"--JJ "Destroyer of Worlds" Abrams
Vandervecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 07:26 PM   #88
PhoenixClass
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: The Pegasus

Vandervecken, you still haven't explained why the gun/flashlight argument is specious. I would like to hear your reasoning for rejecting that defense.
PhoenixClass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 09:01 PM   #89
Vandervecken
Commander
 
Vandervecken's Avatar
 
Location: Kobold
Re: The Pegasus

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
Vandervecken, you still haven't explained why the gun/flashlight argument is specious. I would like to hear your reasoning for rejecting that defense.
I could just as easily repeat--again--that no one has explained how warp 10+ drive that results in a cloaking effect, or ship materials that result in a sturdier ship and healthier crew that result in a cloaking effect, are classifiable first as cloaks. I'm also waiting for someone to write, yes, it is consistent with the intelligently fleshed-out Federation we know in Trek for it to deny itself such advancements because they produce a cloaking effect as a side effect. Well, someone other than DonIago.

It's not a defense. It's an absurdity. You might as well say that a car is a lamp because it has headlights. Sometimes--in fact most of the time--objects do have an obvious first purpose, and a gun is one of them. Do you really think there is anything like a significant fraction of sensible adults--let alone a majority--who think a gun with a flashlight built into it is a flashlight as much as it is a gun? Do you think that?

Treaties, as all laws, must exist in a real world of real consensus viewpoints and tangible facts. They don't exist in some theoretical vacuum where we get to propose anything at all to shore up a weak argument.

Phasing here isn't even close to being the gun with a flashlight attached, where in that metaphor phasing is the flashlight and cloaking is the gun. Phasing, insubstantiality, is something wholly different from invisibility to eyes and sensors, and carries with it a completely different range of possible applications. The first thing that occurred to me is exploration of the interiors of worlds. In the real world, for example, we know a TONLOAD more about our near galactic vicinity than we really know about the distant interior of our own world.

I would be disingenuous myself if I didn't write, at least once in this wrangle, that it's pretty obvious to me that some people posting to this thread want the Federation to be weakened or to weaken itself, or see some nobility in a political unit needlessly straitjacketing itself into a Luddism that isn't even required by the Treaty with the Romulans. I'm fairly sure that some folks see the Federation as a stand-in for the real-world nationalities that they would like to see castrate themselves technologically (and certainly militarily), or imagine are obliged to do so.

I just don't see how many times we can restate this. It is PAINFULLY obvious that simply limiting all technological development that might happen to produce a cloaking effect was NOT what the Feds had in mind when they entered into the treaty, and they'd have to be Pakleds to so restrict themselves. I doubt that the Romulans would ever have seriously approached the Federation to demand adherence to the treaty in such circumstances; they'd know that the idea is laughable. Starfleet should simply have done its phasing experimentation as out in the open as they could without giving away secrets, because as far as I'm concerned, they had nothing to hide.
__________________
"Mu hah hah ha! And when they give me Battlestar Galactica that'll be the trifecta! My red matter and action movie scripts are unstoppable!"--JJ "Destroyer of Worlds" Abrams
Vandervecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 09:12 PM   #90
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: The Pegasus

Please cite supporting evidence for the claims you make about what the treaty does or doesn't specify and what the Federation's intentions were when they signed it.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:22 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.