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Old March 18 2014, 02:31 AM   #1891
WalkerBait
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

selina wrote: View Post
One question: Did Tyreese carry Judith on his back when they left the house at the end of the episode? He had something on his back but I couldn't see what it was. And neither of them were carrying Judith on their arms.
They sort-of covered this in Talking Dead and I noticed it in the episode. Tyrese has Judith in the backpack bjorn as they walk down the tracks. It's a pretty good-sized device and there may have been blankets and such making it harder to see her.

On not killing the train-track walker. It could just be a case of not wanting to kill unless you have to. It's not a threat and, really, you deal with death so much it's probably a *relief* to not have to do it.
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Old March 18 2014, 03:51 AM   #1892
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

selina wrote: View Post
I was a bit surprised that Carol and Tyreese didn't allow Lizzy to watch her sister turn. Lizzy might have finally understood that the old Mika was gone for good and that zombies don't have a personality - or a brain function for that matter, except for the need to eat. Watching zombie Mika could have been Lizzy's wake up call. The whole situation reminded my of Hershal. Back on the farm he thought, too, that his wife was still "there" somehow and that zombies would just be different. But in the end he understood. Since Carol was also at the farm, I wondered why she didn't explain the situation to Lizzy more explicitly...
I think Lizzie just had processing issues. When she said (or something along the lines of) "They just want us to be like them", I realized her understanding of zombies were they're just a different species, not an abomination.
One question: Did Tyreese carry Judith on his back when they left the house at the end of the episode? He had something on his back but I couldn't see what it was. And neither of them were carrying Judith on their arms.
I think she was her on Carol's back.

Last edited by bigboojeg; March 18 2014 at 04:46 AM.
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Old March 18 2014, 04:25 AM   #1893
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

I think the point is that Lizzie was troubled, & not incapable of recovery or at least stabilization, but that Carol & Tyrese are in no condition to be able to provide that, and that there were alternatives to what they did, but that all of them would have made survival either impossible or incredibly difficult

The theme we seem to be touching on is if something or someone is a liability, there may come a time you must rid yourself of it or them for the sake of survival. A little psycho girl that would require constant supervision falls plainly into that category

A child with psychological disorder is a life devalued in the primal world
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Old March 18 2014, 04:36 AM   #1894
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

It was really an f'd up situation but what else could they do? There was no way they could ever trust her again she was a danger to them, to Judith and to anyone else she'd be around. They've not the time or resources to give her the intensive counseling and help she needed. (It seems that she's always had "issues" judging from the "look at the flowers" thing and maybe she was having them treated pre-ZA but medications and such are more scarce now.)

So there's no way they can trust her ever again, kid is obviously screwed up, and leaving her abandoned would probably, in a way, just be more inhumane.

But, man, Jesus. It's still fucked up. This was just a powerful episode when you realize everything that happened here.
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Old March 18 2014, 04:46 AM   #1895
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Right. I'm not saying they made the wrong choice. I'm saying there were other choices. They're maybe only a week or so from Terminus (Possibly) where they could've at least had more people to help watch Lizzie. Until then they could have disarmed her, & someone kept a constant eye on her by taking sleep shifts (Which they'll likely have to do on the road alone anyhow). But by no means is that a full proof plan nor one that is without risk to everyone else's safety

The more optimal choice is what they did. Is it the moral choice? In their world... I don't really know
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Old March 18 2014, 04:51 AM   #1896
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Mojochi wrote: View Post
Right. I'm not saying they made the wrong choice. I'm saying there were other choices. They're maybe only a week or so from Terminus (Possibly) where they could've at least had more people to help watch Lizzie. Until then they could have disarmed her, & someone kept a constant eye on her by taking sleep shifts
Did you miss the conversation at the table where Tyrese and Carol agreed "she can never be around other people"? The absolute last choice for them would have been to take her to Terminus (which we don't even know if it even exists, let alone is remotely safe for them or Lizzie or anyone else).
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Old March 18 2014, 04:56 AM   #1897
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
On not killing the train-track walker. It could just be a case of not wanting to kill unless you have to. It's not a threat and, really, you deal with death so much it's probably a *relief* to not have to do it.

And perhaps leaving that walker on the tracks was done out of respect for Lizzie. Just because they killed her doesn't mean they didn't love and care about her. Leaving the walker alone on the tracks may have been a little going-away sign of respect for Lizzie, a bit of a "living" memorial to her. (Remember, she was not evil, and she did not mean to hurt her sister or anyone else, she simply did not understand the world she was in.)
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Old March 18 2014, 04:58 AM   #1898
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Yeah, we don't know how far away Terminus is or what resources they have when it comes to dealing with mentally handicapped people like Lizzie was. Sort of going back to the situation with the kid they "saved" in Season 2 and then debated with what to do with him next. No one felt comfortable with him being around, not knowing what he was capable of or if he'd escape and bring others back, and keeping an eye on him 24/7 was just impractical.

They had mostly seemed to settle on the idea of dropping him off somewhere unknown but even that had problems, holes and issues considering he seemed to know who Maggie was and then potentially where the farm is. Shane stepped up and did something but it was an issue to him, and an issue with Dale to kill Randal (the kid.)

Kind of the same thing here. Doing anything with her just wasn't practical and they didn't know how to "help" her. Again, did they make the "right" choice. Certainly not. Did they have other choices? Surely, yes.

It was a fucked-up situation all around.
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Old March 18 2014, 10:10 AM   #1899
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Whoa, I knew Lizzie was going to be trouble eventually, but that was terrible. I can't believe she killed her little sister like that. This episode was as heartbreaking as seeing Sophia come out of the barn. Tyreese and Carol really were left with no other choice but to kill her under the circumstances. That level of mental illness is difficult enough to deal with in civilization, let alone in an uncivilized wilderness (and it seems that Lizzie was "messed up" before the ZA-- that counting flowers exercise must have been something they learned from a social worker or psychiatrist). And given her morbid attraction to the Walkers and her meltdown when Carol killed her "friend," she would not only be a constant threat to others, but could only look forward to a life of torment.

That image of Lizzie standing there with blood on her hands is haunting. Thank goodness the baby is okay.
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Old March 18 2014, 12:17 PM   #1900
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

shivkala wrote: View Post
The leader would be a better analogy, as I meant more the belief that death is a transition to something else (usually better). However, as you point out, Lizzie was not willing to go through that transition herself, for the most part, except when she was near the railway walker.

I wonder if Mika's death was at least in part due to her stopping Lizzie from letting the Walker bite her. Maybe Lizzie felt brave enough at that moment and could not summon the courage. Or maybe, while she knows any death will cause it, Lizzie herself wanted to die by walker bite/infection and was hoping Mika would bite her after she turned.
I think it had more to do with her talk with Carol. Clearly she took away from that something entirely different than what Carol intended.

As for the walker on the tracks: dangling one's foot over a cliff isn't the same thing as intended to jump. The common theme with all of her interactions with the walkers is that she's playing with them like pets, not friends as equals.

Look how she reacts when she's suddenly not in control, like when the walker goes for them them outside on the porch, or when the burnt herd turns up. If she's not in control (in her head at least) or not being understood, she's in a borderline panic. The way I see it, this is her coping mechanism for feeling powerless.

Since the comic is something else, entirely, it's times like these I wish The Walking Dead had more related media. I know about the video game, but I think there is so much potential in the characters, it would be interesting to see Lizzie and Mika prior to this season. Was Lizzie always like this, or was it a result of the zombie apocalypse and something as traumatic as seeing her mother die/turn? We get the sense that she's this way when we first meet her and her father's death only seems to exacerbate it. What made these two girls the way they were?
What makes anyone mentally ill? Usually a combination of heredity and environment, just like anything else. In this case looking at the interaction between the two girls it's clear she'd probably had some emotional issues before everything happened. Doesn't really matter what the specific trigger was because if anything is going to send an emotionally unstable person over the edge, it's the dead coming back to life and eating people.
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Old March 18 2014, 12:28 PM   #1901
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

I'm not a mental health expert, but I'd think in "our" world, it would have taken years of psychiatric help (including talking to a psychiatrist and a regiment of medicine) to help Lizzie. No matter how stocked Terminus is, I doubt they'd have those resources. Let's say, for argument's sake, they did have a psychiatrist. Would s/he have brought psychiatric medicine along? And in a quantity enough to see someone go for the full range of the treatment? And would it still be good for years or would it be past its expiration date.

And what do you do with a Lizzie? My guess, in "our" world, especially after she killed, would be to isolate her. Where do you do that (assuming Terminus is a town like Woodbury, would they have a psychiatric hospital within its limits?)? And do you really want to isolate someone in a world where, at any moment, a herd of walkers could descend, causing you to flee in a hurry?

That's assuming you tell them in Terminus about Lizzie. It doesn't seem good practice to me to go to a sanctuary, one of the few you're aware of, and say, "Hey, while we have two able bodied adults willing to help out, we also have an infant and a troubled child who has killed before and will most likely kill again." If I were in charge of Terminus, I might let the baby in, for survival of the species, but I wouldn't risk Lizzie.

So, they don't tell them about Lizzie. In my opinion, that would make them accomplishes when she kills again. Or lures walkers to their gates/doors/whatever they have to barricade themselves from the walkers. And, then, when they meet the others from the prison who will ask about Mika (unless, they are so jaded, they just accept that her absence means she died and don't even bother asking about how she died), how will they answer?

In "our" world, I don't think killing a child is justified, ever. In the world of The Walking Dead, well, "Needs must..."

Reverend wrote: View Post
I think it had more to do with her talk with Carol. Clearly she took away from that something entirely different than what Carol intended.

As for the walker on the tracks: dangling one's foot over a cliff isn't the same thing as intended to jump. The common theme with all of her interactions with the walkers is that she's playing with them like pets, not friends as equals.

Look how she reacts when she's suddenly not in control, like when the walker goes for them them outside on the porch, or when the burnt herd turns up. If she's not in control (in her head at least) or not being understood, she's in a borderline panic. The way I see it, this is her coping mechanism for feeling powerless.
That does make sense. It's her way of coping with the world she's now in. In "our" world, she might have reacted by trying, unsuccessfully to kill herself. One of the (sadly) many people who use a suicide attempt as a cry for help. I have a feeling that if she really wanted the walker to bite her, she would have let it.

What makes anyone mentally ill? Usually a combination of heredity and environment, just like anything else. In this case looking at the interaction between the two girls it's clear she'd probably had some emotional issues before everything happened. Doesn't really matter what the specific trigger was because if anything is going to send an emotionally unstable person over the edge, it's the dead coming back to life and eating people.
I just mean I think there's story potential there, that won't be addressed on the show. Was Mika unaffected by these things or did she use innocence as her coping mechanism? My own personal "head canon" is that Lizzie saw her mother turn and wanted to understand it/believe that she wasn't gone, just temporarily transformed, with the hope that, eventually she'll come back. As things went on, Lizzie decided that the only way to be with her mother again was to be turned into a walker, but every time she came close, her doubt/sanity prevented her. But, her curiosity won out, and she decided she wanted to see what would happen to her sister, as a proxy for the (presumably, long gone) mother. Perhaps, seeing it happen to Mika would have given her the courage she felt she needed to allow herself to be turned. Or maybe she was hoping Mika turning wouldn't give her the choice to pull away anymore.

To me, the true mark of a good story (book, show, movie, etc.) is that it allows me to think about it and create my own explanations for things. So, I am curious about these things, as it allows me to understand the show on my own terms.
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Old March 18 2014, 02:52 PM   #1902
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Yeah, we don't know how far away Terminus is or what resources they have when it comes to dealing with mentally handicapped people like Lizzie was. Sort of going back to the situation with the kid they "saved" in Season 2 and then debated with what to do with him next. No one felt comfortable with him being around, not knowing what he was capable of or if he'd escape and bring others back, and keeping an eye on him 24/7 was just impractical.

They had mostly seemed to settle on the idea of dropping him off somewhere unknown but even that had problems, holes and issues considering he seemed to know who Maggie was and then potentially where the farm is. Shane stepped up and did something but it was an issue to him, and an issue with Dale to kill Randal (the kid.)

Kind of the same thing here. Doing anything with her just wasn't practical and they didn't know how to "help" her. Again, did they make the "right" choice. Certainly not. Did they have other choices? Surely, yes.

It was a fucked-up situation all around.
Good points. Yes, like season two's Randall, a threat is a threat (though Shane killed him for selfish reasons).

In Lizzie's case, she was like the Governor: adopting an utterly warped view of reality, and no amount of reasoning, pleading or force would change them.

At best, Lizzie--even before the unforgivable act of murdering Mika--would be isolated with no means to kill (or defend / suicide, etc.) at a new camp, with limited social contact to see if she can be counselled back into common sense.

Carol may feel she's "responsible" for Lizzie, but the debut episode of season 4 illustrated that something was wrong with her for a very long time (at least in the off-screen time between s3 & 4).

I do not know if I would take Carol's action. Risky as it could be, I think I would have tried one last attempt...pre-Mika's death.

After that, I do not know.
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Old March 18 2014, 02:59 PM   #1903
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

There really wasn't any way to change her outlook. The part that made it next to impossible was the fact that she thought they just wanted to make people "like them." So even if she saw them murder someone and move on, which I'm sure she has many times, she'd have no reason to change her mind on the topic.

Her only hope would be to be locked up in an asylum and drugged out of her gourd. And, honestly, that's a worse fate than being shot in the head to me.
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Old March 18 2014, 03:31 PM   #1904
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Didn't Lizzie at some point mention about hearing their voices? Is it possible she was a schizophrenic?
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Old March 18 2014, 04:40 PM   #1905
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
In Lizzie's case, she was like the Governor: adopting an utterly warped view of reality, and no amount of reasoning, pleading or force would change them.
Quite right. Lizzie did have a similarly warped view of reality to that of the Governor. "Good a reason as any" to terminate her now rather than let her grow into an even more dangerous adult. Not quite the strangling in the crib method, but close.

In most situations, the execution of Lizzie would be seen as a significantly horrible thing; it still is... but in a universe like the one presented in "The Walking Dead," for the good of what remains of mankind, people like Lizzie need to be put down. That's pretty strong stuff, but damned if it doesn't make for fine TV drama.
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