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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 16 2014, 01:18 AM   #46
Clark Terrell
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: USS Reliant
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Timo wrote: View Post
I think the movie does its darnedest to establish that Khan has no plan - that the once brilliant tactician is now a raving lunatic who sacrifices everything to his quest of hurting Kirk.
Exactly. Khan had an entire starship at his disposal and could have gone anywhere in the galaxy, but what did he do? He picked a fight with an old nemesis to settle an eighteen-year-old score that was largely a fiction brought on by his mental and emotional deterioration-- a fight he ended up losing because he never considered the possibility that despite his advanced intelligence, Kirk was simply better than he was when it came to commanding a starship.

I could spend hours talking about how I believe much of Kirk's command style as depicted in the TOS films was merely leadership by arrogance rather than tactical brilliance, but that doesn't mean he didn't have moments when he managed to put his own ego aside for the good of ship and crew.
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Old March 18 2014, 04:02 AM   #47
Clark Terrell
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Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

An additional point that hasn't been addressed: it's unlikely Kirk had any authority over Reliant's assignment to the Genesis project because if he had, it seems to me he'd have contacted Reliant after getting Carol's message rather than contacting Starfleet Command. But not only did he not do that, he also didn't seem to make the connection between Genesis and Reliant's sudden appearance in the Enterprise's path hours later. It's only after Khan asks about Genesis that he realizes something's up.
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Old March 18 2014, 04:33 AM   #48
Lance
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Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
An additional point that hasn't been addressed: it's unlikely Kirk had any authority over Reliant's assignment to the Genesis project because if he had, it seems to me he'd have contacted Reliant after getting Carol's message rather than contacting Starfleet Command. But not only did he not do that, he also didn't seem to make the connection between Genesis and Reliant's sudden appearance in the Enterprise's path hours later. It's only after Khan asks about Genesis that he realizes something's up.
The reality is that TWOK could have been subtitled 'Kirk has a really bad day'. I mean, it's like the way he ignores basic regulations when Saavik tries to quote them at him, resulting in deaths onboard the Enterprise. Kirk could just be taking his eye off the ball in a number of the areas you describe. He's lost some of his sharpness.

I'm not saying Jim Kirk is a bad commander. But he's clearly a little out-of-touch with what it means to sit in that chair, and it isn't until his double-bluff with Khan late in the movie that he really starts to get his shit back together in any kind of meaningful way. The whole thing was just meant to be a fun-ride for Kirk's birthday anyway, so chances are that when the Regula situation kicks off and he's forced to take the reigns, he's having to adapt to starship command again on the fly after a decade of being behind a desk, and he just isn't coping very well.
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Old March 18 2014, 04:43 AM   #49
Clark Terrell
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Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Lance wrote: View Post
The reality is that TWOK could have been subtitled 'Kirk has a really bad day'. I mean, it's like the way he ignores basic regulations when Saavik tries to quote them at him, resulting in deaths onboard the Enterprise. Kirk could just be taking his eye off the ball in a number of the areas you describe.
Absolutely. But what troubles me most about that scenario is that it's one we've seen before, in the previous movie. Decker warns Kirk about not using the warp-drive before it's ready, and Kirk flies the Enterprise into a wormhole and nearly crashes it into an asteroid, a fate avoided only because Decker realized that an engine imbalance would knock out primary power to the phaser-banks-- something he knew because he commanded the ship for its entire reft and knew every system upgrade. It's only after McCoy yells at Kirk that the latter realizes his obsession with the Enterprise could get everyone killed.

Lance wrote: View Post
I'm not saying Jim Kirk is a bad commander. But he's clearly a little out-of-touch with what it means to sit in that chair, and it isn't until his double-bluff with Khan late in the movie that he really starts to get his shit back together in any kind of meaningful way. The whole thing was just meant to be a fun-ride for Kirk's birthday anyway, so chances are he's having to adapt to starship command again on the fly after a decade of being behind a desk, and he just isn't coping very well.
Kirk was out of step, but that doesn't mean he'd have missed an important detail such as Reliant being assigned to Genesis. His having been absent from the captain's chair for several years shouldn't have prevented him from putting two-and-two together and realizing Reliant must have gone off the grid for them to be asking Marcus to hand over the Genesis materials. And if Kirk really did order Reliant on its mission and forgot about it, he should have been relieved of duty immediately by McCoy.
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Old March 18 2014, 05:22 AM   #50
C.E. Evans
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Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
An additional point that hasn't been addressed: it's unlikely Kirk had any authority over Reliant's assignment to the Genesis project because if he had, it seems to me he'd have contacted Reliant after getting Carol's message rather than contacting Starfleet Command. But not only did he not do that, he also didn't seem to make the connection between Genesis and Reliant's sudden appearance in the Enterprise's path hours later. It's only after Khan asks about Genesis that he realizes something's up.
It was speculated earlier in this thread that Kirk only knew about Genesis because Carol Marcus was involved with it.

For all we know, Kirk may have been the Academy commandant at the time of TWOK and didn't really get brought into the full loop after he contacted Starfleet that something was amiss at Regula I. It could have been a case that as the highest-ranking officer nearby (and also because he was James T. Kirk), Starfleet entrusted him to deal with it.
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Old March 18 2014, 05:30 AM   #51
Clark Terrell
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Location: USS Reliant
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
It was speculated earlier in this thread that Kirk only knew about Genesis because Carol Marcus was involved with it.
Right. I think that's the most likely explanation. Kirk couldn't have known all the details but may have heard about the project given Carol's involvement. For all we know, he may have seen the video presentation and forgotten about it because he had more important things to do but remembered once he heard from Carol.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
For all we know, Kirk may have been the Academy commandant at the time of TWOK and didn't really get brought into the full loop after he contacted Starfleet that something was amiss at Regula I. It could have been a case that as the highest-ranking officer nearby (and also because he was James T. Kirk), Starfleet entrusted him to deal with it.
Here's what I think happened:
  1. Kirk contacts Starfleet after receiving jammed message from Carol.
  2. Kirk explains situation to HQ (Morrow, Cartwright, or Smillie) and advises Starfleet that Enterprise is in the midst of a training cruise and cannot intervene.
  3. Starfleet orders Kirk to proceed due to relative proximity to Regula One and offers that Kirk has most of his former senior staff aboard to assist and grants him access to Genesis materials for the duration of the mission.
  4. Kirk watches Genesis tape to understand basic idea of project.
  5. Kirk goes to Spock's quarters to talk with him as seen onscreen.
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Old March 18 2014, 06:01 AM   #52
C.E. Evans
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Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
It was speculated earlier in this thread that Kirk only knew about Genesis because Carol Marcus was involved with it.
Right. I think that's the most likely explanation. Kirk couldn't have known all the details but may have heard about the project given Carol's involvement. For all we know, he may have seen the video presentation and forgotten about it because he had more important things to do but remembered once he heard from Carol.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
For all we know, Kirk may have been the Academy commandant at the time of TWOK and didn't really get brought into the full loop after he contacted Starfleet that something was amiss at Regula I. It could have been a case that as the highest-ranking officer nearby (and also because he was James T. Kirk), Starfleet entrusted him to deal with it.
Here's what I think happened:
  1. Kirk contacts Starfleet after receiving jammed message from Carol.
  2. Kirk explains situation to HQ (Morrow, Cartwright, or Smillie) and advises Starfleet that Enterprise is in the midst of a training cruise and cannot intervene.
  3. Starfleet orders Kirk to proceed due to relative proximity to Regula One and offers that Kirk has most of his former senior staff aboard to assist and grants him access to Genesis materials for the duration of the mission.
  4. Kirk watches Genesis tape to understand basic idea of project.
  5. Kirk goes to Spock's quarters to talk with him as seen onscreen.
That definitely works for me.
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Old March 18 2014, 07:30 AM   #53
drt
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Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

I concur, probably because for some reason I was always under the impression that Kirk had watched the presentation shortly before showing it to Spock and McCoy.
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Old March 18 2014, 03:58 PM   #54
Timo
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Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

An alternate model would have Kirk receive the "distress call", decide it's too garbled to actually prove that there's any distress beyond communications problems, and vaguely inform Starfleet Command of his decision to go visit his old flame, thinking "This will really cap my birthday". He remembers what Genesis is all about without having to look up anything, but he does check whether there's an introductory file available so that he can impress his friends with it.

Timo Saloniemi
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