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Old March 17 2014, 02:12 PM   #2251
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

But you kinda HAVE to resolve the internal conflict in order to team up on the bigger Others issue, no? Guess you could have them unite out of necessity, and then go right back to fighting with whoever is left, but not sure that works any better...
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Old March 17 2014, 03:12 PM   #2252
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Venardhi wrote: View Post
The game of thrones is never over. Wrapping it all up neatly would be the worst possible ending. I don't see how you wrap up the struggle for the throne before the threat of the others is dealt with.
Which is the main story -- Who sits on the Iron Throne, or what lurks beyond the Wall? Are the Others a side-story to the Iron Throne, or is the Iron Throne a side-story to the Others? I'm of the opinion that the Iron Throne is just a sideshow to the main event -- Ice (the White Walkers) versus Fire (Dragons) -- so therefore the Iron Throne has to be wrapped up first and in such a way that it both feels like closure and an "Oh, shit!" moment as characters realize there's a much bigger threat on the horizon.

Yes, Kelthaz, that does sound "so ... generic," but that's also basic narrative structure -- a situation is overcome, revealing a new plot complication. It may seem like there's a lot going on in Game of Thrones -- it's dense, there's a fuckton of characters -- but much of it is misdirection and obfuscation, and it's not going to matter in the end. My thoughts on what seasons six and seven will probably look like isn't any more generic than what we've had thus far or anything Martin's written.
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Old March 17 2014, 03:40 PM   #2253
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I don't see the Others storyline as one that's ever going to involve all the characters directly. This doesn't feel like a series that's building to an epic confrontation with humanity unified against a monstrous onslaught. In fact, the relevant prophecies and visions suggest it's individual players (Jon, Dany, perhaps Tyrion and Bran) that are important rather than rallying the troops. Probably the threat will manifest in some way that makes all the characters aware of it, creating a sense of finality and moment without requiring Arya, Sansa, Brienne, Jaime, and other characters with no evident connection to that storyline to be shoehorned in.

"The main story" is the chaos that spreads across Westeros during the timeframe of the series, its effect on the central characters, and what that reveals about human nature as constrained by medieval values and resources. It's not so tightly bound by the unity of action that we have to pick a particular narrative strand as the main one.
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Old March 17 2014, 05:20 PM   #2254
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Brendan Moody wrote: View Post
I don't see the Others storyline as one that's ever going to involve all the characters directly. This doesn't feel like a series that's building to an epic confrontation with humanity unified against a monstrous onslaught.

"The main story" is the chaos that spreads across Westeros during the timeframe of the series, its effect on the central characters, and what that reveals about human nature as constrained by medieval values and resources. It's not so tightly bound by the unity of action that we have to pick a particular narrative strand as the main one.
Exactly.

Wrapping up the complex civil war in Westeros just in time for humanity to stand united against the big bad final boss in an epic war is so boring. My expectations for a Dream of Spring go a bit higher than a WarHammer book.
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Old March 17 2014, 06:15 PM   #2255
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Brendan Moody wrote: View Post
"The main story" is the chaos that spreads across Westeros during the timeframe of the series, its effect on the central characters, and what that reveals about human nature as constrained by medieval values and resources. It's not so tightly bound by the unity of action that we have to pick a particular narrative strand as the main one.
That's an interesting viewpoint, but it reduces Martin's work to the level of a Harry Turtledove series.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:02 PM   #2256
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
That's an interesting viewpoint, but it reduces Martin's work to the level of a Harry Turtledove series.
I enjoy the entertainment of Martin's work immensely, but I would not say it is especially "greater" than anything else. That will show itself in time, but not now.
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Old March 18 2014, 02:43 PM   #2257
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Short interview with Michael McElhatton, who plays Roose Bolton: http://winteriscoming.net/2014/03/mi...-and-season-4/
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Old March 18 2014, 04:28 PM   #2258
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Brendan Moody wrote: View Post
"The main story" is the chaos that spreads across Westeros during the timeframe of the series, its effect on the central characters, and what that reveals about human nature as constrained by medieval values and resources. It's not so tightly bound by the unity of action that we have to pick a particular narrative strand as the main one.
That's an interesting viewpoint, but it reduces Martin's work to the level of a Harry Turtledove series.
Actually, it's the idea that the series should boil down to a main story that's reductive. Life doesn't conform to "basic narrative structure;" in any context from individuals to nations, the conflicting interests of various players are colliding in disorganized ways all the time. Obviously a certain amount of contrivance is required to create a satisfying narrative around such disorder, but a strict hierarchy between a main story and subplots has more to do with heavy-handed authorial fiat than with useful observations about human behavior. Especially if the main story in question is stock fantasy boilerplate about plucky humanity and the malicious non-human creatures. My biggest worry about the endgame of the series is that the Others storyline is going to dump the things that make the series interesting (as epic fantasy goes; obviously this is entertainment with some literary elements, not literature) in favor of "Oh, how blind we were to participate in human drama, let's gather the mystical swords and slay the ice monsters."
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Old March 18 2014, 06:21 PM   #2259
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Of course, that's been the deal with this series from the beginning. GCCM wandered a bit with the story when he stretched it out, but at heart, it's idiots in the south playing their nonsense games while the real threat looms ignored. Once they've beaten themsevles up sufficiently, they'll figure out that the game of thrones was petty nonsense, and should band together to deal with the undead walkers headed their way instead.

Been that way since the opening chapter of the series, and not sure how else you can end it. Pretty much down to whether they formally end the King's landing stuff before the Walker war, or if they just all drop it, fight together, and go back to squabbling amongst whomever is still alive after.

Any other way to see this all ending? that's been the endgame from the beginning. Some flavor of Jon and Dany against the white walkers. Not much else has mattered
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Old March 18 2014, 08:34 PM   #2260
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Any other way to see this all ending? that's been the endgame from the beginning. Some flavor of Jon and Dany against the white walkers. Not much else has mattered
The war with the Others doesn't come. They're stopped by Bran and The Night's Watch before they can breach the wall.
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Old March 19 2014, 01:26 AM   #2261
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Of course, that's been the deal with this series from the beginning. GCCM wandered a bit with the story when he stretched it out, but at heart, it's idiots in the south playing their nonsense games while the real threat looms ignored. Once they've beaten themsevles up sufficiently, they'll figure out that the game of thrones was petty nonsense, and should band together to deal with the undead walkers headed their way instead.

Been that way since the opening chapter of the series, and not sure how else you can end it. Pretty much down to whether they formally end the King's landing stuff before the Walker war, or if they just all drop it, fight together, and go back to squabbling amongst whomever is still alive after.

Any other way to see this all ending? that's been the endgame from the beginning. Some flavor of Jon and Dany against the white walkers. Not much else has mattered
My only issue with this is that the entire Iron Throne plot, which has been the main focus for thousands and thousands of pages, could end up feeling completely pointless.
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Old March 19 2014, 02:16 AM   #2262
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Thought that was kinda the idea? It IS pointless, wasteful, and thousands (or more) have died for that nonsense. All while winter is coming and they should be preparing for a years-long snow...
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Old March 19 2014, 03:33 AM   #2263
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Brendan Moody wrote: View Post
I don't see the Others storyline as one that's ever going to involve all the characters directly. This doesn't feel like a series that's building to an epic confrontation with humanity unified against a monstrous onslaught. In fact, the relevant prophecies and visions suggest it's individual players (Jon, Dany, perhaps Tyrion and Bran) that are important rather than rallying the troops. Probably the threat will manifest in some way that makes all the characters aware of it, creating a sense of finality and moment without requiring Arya, Sansa, Brienne, Jaime, and other characters with no evident connection to that storyline to be shoehorned in.
I expect many of the POVs in the south to have their stories wrapped up in resolving the "game", but Arya and Sansa will be involved in the Others' story somehow, I don't doubt.

This series was originally going to be a trilogy:

(1) A Game of Thrones: Starks vs. Lannisters, ending with the Red Wedding.
(2) A Dance with Dragons: Dany's invasion.
(3) A Time for Wolves: Westeros vs. the Others.

Book 1 became three books, with an additional two bridging books, but the remaining two books are now The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring. Expect the series' original main characters to be on deck for the final battle, including all the Starks (the "wolves" whose time it was to be, after all).
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Old March 19 2014, 04:21 AM   #2264
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

New trailer:

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Old March 19 2014, 04:53 PM   #2265
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I think good old George is in denial.

George R.R. Martin wrote:
'A Dance with Dragons' is itself a book that's as big as 'A Storm of Swords.' So there's potentially three more seasons there, between 'Feast' and 'Dance,' if they split into two the way they did [with 'Storms'].

<snip>

Now, 'Feast' and 'Dance' take place simultaneously. So you can't do 'Feast' and then 'Dance' the way I did. You can combine them and do it chronologically. And it's my hope that they'll do it that way and then, long before they catch up with me, I'll have published 'The Winds of Winter,' which'll give me another couple years.
http://io9.com/which-jurassic-park-c...1546793860/all

He seems to think that since 'Storm of Swords' will take 2 seasons to cover, then the same will hold true for 'Feast' and 'Dance'. That means he believes the TV show will run for 10-15 years giving him plenty of time to finish the next two books.
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