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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old March 13 2014, 03:49 AM   #31
Greg Cox
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Melakon wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
No love for Lot's wife?
I'm on a salt restricted diet.
There's a salt vampire joke here somewhere, but I can't quite find it . . ..
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Old March 13 2014, 06:28 AM   #32
teacake
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Hint for Greg: that mouth..
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Old March 13 2014, 05:59 PM   #33
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

By consequence of his long exile out in the wilderness, Tieran perforce had to be a master manipulator of interpersonal dynamics. So whatever permutations of sexual badinage were necessary to further exert his control over cohorts/enemies/whoever, he was fine with. Whatever his own orientation, it probably gave him an exhilarating respite from so intensely furrowing his forehead pegs with his constant power machinations.
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Old March 13 2014, 06:05 PM   #34
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

By the by, I also meant to say that this thread is very divertingly titled. I spied it in the roster and had the immediate sense I was about to start reading a fairy tale!!!
Jack and the Giant Beanstalk came to mind for some reason.
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Old March 14 2014, 03:29 AM   #35
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Melakon wrote: View Post
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. . .power was more an Afrodisiac than his girl was. . .
Is that some sort of hair style? Are you a fan of Brandy Norwood's album from 2004? Or did you mean to type aphrodisiac?
I have to choose??
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Old March 17 2014, 03:35 AM   #36
david g
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

As I discuss at length in my book "Gender and Sexuality in Star Trek," VOY is full of rich, and resonantly explored, queer subtext. I also do not see it in any way, except perhaps for some of the earlier plots, as "a formulaic 'TNG-lite' show," as Christopher does. I thought VOY daringly explored dynamics of gender and queer desire.
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Old March 17 2014, 03:39 AM   #37
Guy Gardener
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

By accident because they were too ignorant to censor themselves.
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Old March 17 2014, 03:47 AM   #38
david g
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Guy, I completely disagree, and your comment shows that you don't have much respect for the intelligence and creativity that VOY was capable of.
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Old March 17 2014, 03:56 AM   #39
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

david g wrote: View Post
As I discuss at length in my book "Gender and Sexuality in Star Trek," VOY is full of rich, and resonantly explored, queer subtext. I also do not see it in any way, except perhaps for some of the earlier plots, as "a formulaic 'TNG-lite' show," as Christopher does. I thought VOY daringly explored dynamics of gender and queer desire.
"Daringly?" When it didn't even have the courage to go through with a lesbian kiss as DS9 had already done a year or so before?

And your last two sentences are a complete non sequitur. I wasn't talking about whether or not there was GLBT subtext, I was talking about whether UPN wanted to allow serialization, deal with the practical consequences of the ship's stranding, etc.
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Old March 17 2014, 04:28 AM   #40
david g
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Christopher, you seemed to be saying that VOY's being "TNG-lite" and formulaic contributed to its lack of exploration of LGBTQI subtext, in comparison to DS9. Is that not what you were saying? If I misunderstood, my apologies.

I would argue--as I have argued--that Trek explores queer themes allegorically. This does not excuse Trek for not exploring queer themes explicitly, but, nevertheless, the allegorical resonance of Trek's queer themes runs deep in my view. In terms of VOY, I see some fairly daring allegorical exploration of queer desire in "Faces," "The 37s," "Deadlock," "The Chute" (almost explicit here), "Warlord," "Blood Fever," "The Gift," "Demon," "Drone," "Dark Frontier," "Course: Oblivion," "Imperfection," "Flesh and Blood" I and II, "Endgame," to name a few, and many of the stand-alone Doctor episodes.
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Old March 17 2014, 05:15 AM   #41
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

I don't think it "daringly explored dynamics of gender and queer desire", I think I daringly explored that stuff while watching it or perhaps trashily explored it would be more accurate. The reason there is plenty to work with is excellent lively affectionate acting on the part of most of them at one point or another. Also Kate Mulgrew touches touches touches.. everyone she is talking to and that seemed to encourage folk to stand close and look close and we the fans to fill in the blanks.

I'll give you the BQ though, that was written hot, all about seduction. Vampire Queen really.
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Old March 17 2014, 05:39 AM   #42
Guy Gardener
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

david g wrote: View Post
Guy, I completely disagree, and your comment shows that you don't have much respect for the intelligence and creativity that VOY was capable of.
AE: I’m very much a fan of Star Trek but unfortunately none of the series ever included a gay character. You were involved with writing two of the movies and produced or executive produced for The Next Generation, Voyager and Enterprise. Can you speak to why that never happened?
BB: It was a shame for a lot of us that … I’m talking about the Next Generation, Deep Space Nine and there was a constant back and forth about well how do we portray the spectrum of sexuality. There were people who felt very strongly that we should be showing casually, you know, just two guys together in the background in Ten Forward. At the time the decision was made not to do that and I think those same people would make a different decision now because I think, you know, that was 1989, well yeah about 89, 90, 91. I have no doubt that those same creative players wouldn’t feel so hesitant to have, you know, have been squeamish about a decision like that.
You see what you want to see.

The ridiculous lengths the cult of true believers here go to to prove their fantastic claim that Janeway and Chakotay were always in love and always cow eyed looking at each other with bedroom eyes... Paddock eyes or stable eyes? I suppose a cow would only be in a stable if it was sick?

A lot of people see what they want to see.

I would jump on any opportunity for there to have been proof of homosexuality on Voyager but the closest they ever got was homophobia in Flesh and Blood when the Doctor expounded disgust at the thought of kissing another man.

Imagining that Voyager is prohomosexual only hurts homosexuality by telling lies that Voyager loves gays when really it's almost absolutely indifferent. That's like saying that the Klan loves Jews. You can say that all you want, but it's unlikely that the Klan has much admiration for the Jewish people in day to day practice.

I would have loved it if Voyager was progay in any way, but it wasn't and that's a demerit in my books that the series was a coward and backward and shouldn't be thought of as any other way as far as gay rights go.

Oh? Holographic rights = LGBT rights?

Ridiculous.

But I could see how many people might think that becuase they want their star trek to like their orientation and they are grasping at any fray than can, which is perhaps one of the ways that I thought that Voyager accidentally touched upon Gay Rights.

But it really, really wasn't about being gay in the 1990s.

POssibly it was about being gay in the 1890s, but how the frakk is that relevant to us an an audience?

Now if you want a Series that LOVES the Gays, may I suggest the fan series Star Trek Hidden Frontier, which has gay men and women, main cast members and supporting, in many ongoing and flash in the pan healthy and/or frivolous relationships without an once of stunt spectacle or freakshow about it. It's just something that happenes inbetween spaceship battles.

(It helps that the Producer, and half the cast were gay.)
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Old March 17 2014, 07:42 AM   #43
david g
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

If the terms of the argument are, that, absolutely, only explicit representations of loving homosexual relationships count, then all Trek films and series fail.

If we can establish that there are myriad ways in which the series has spoken to its LGBTQI fanbase in allegorical and symbolic terms, then VOY has certainly done so, and eloquently, at times.

I think that likening TPTB at Trek, for all of their considerable failures on several counts, to the Klan is, well, de trop.
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Old March 17 2014, 07:45 AM   #44
david g
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Teacake, there is a strong body of criticism on fan appropriation of Trek that would certainly speak to fans' own daring enlargement of what was offered. But...I actually find that many VOY episodes are extremely well-written and conceptually interesting and suggestive. Not all of them, by any means, but many of them.
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Old March 17 2014, 08:12 AM   #45
teacake
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Well david g I have long lost track of what was actually written and/or acted into a story and what I smuggled into the story in the service of wish fulfillment. But I'd like to see hard evidence of actual, deliberate writing or acting that was gay supportive or about gay issues in Voyager. We have Andrew Robinson's own words about how he played Garak for instance. Much as I will happily J/7 it up over the fireside scene, the pip scene etc.. I do not think that is what was meant by the either the writing or the acting. KM played it that way with everyone, she woos the people she interacts with and when one person is particularly special to her it's easy to see more to that wooing than how KM intended it. I'm the biggest LET'S MAKE EVERYTHING GAY GAY GAY fangirl evah but I do not think in the case of Voyager the happy subtext was deliberate.

And I'm watching Buffy atm (NO SPOILERS PLEASE) and there is regular old gay relationship right in the middle of every episode involving a main character during the same time VOY was on the air and it's really hard not to look at this and think "Star Trek, you suck"
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