RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,213
Posts: 5,437,517
Members: 24,952
Currently online: 490
Newest member: secondhandmeth

TrekToday headlines

Cumberbatch In Wax
By: T'Bonz on Oct 24

Trek Screenwriter Washington D.C. Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Oct 23

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 14 2014, 01:05 AM   #31
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Khan also tortured some of the scientists at the Regula Space Lab. Perhaps Kirk was involved in the project at some point. Perhaps Carol Marcus took it to Kirk first and Kirk then took it to the Federation. The scientist knew this and during their torture the name Kirk came up.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14 2014, 01:14 AM   #32
Clark Terrell
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: USS Reliant
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Khan also tortured some of the scientists at the Regula Space Lab. Perhaps Kirk was involved in the project at some point. Perhaps Carol Marcus took it to Kirk first and Kirk then took it to the Federation. The scientist knew this and during their torture the name Kirk came up.
Maybe, but I never got the impression that Kirk was Carol's only friendly acquaintance in Starfleet. David didn't approve of the organization and referred it by the broad term of military more than once, but Carol disputed his interpretation of the situation and argued that Starfleet was primarily a peace-keeping organization despite its differences with the civilian members of the Federation.

Whether David's views were the result of his alienation from his father or merely the naïve worldview of a young man who, despite his education and intellect, possessed little in the way of common sense and life experience and viewed anyone not dedicated to purely scientific endeavors as being less than he was is something I can't answer. Not enough details about his life are shared in his relatively brief appearances.
Clark Terrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14 2014, 01:49 AM   #33
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
Timewalker's Avatar
 
Location: In many different universes, simultaneously.
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Nebusj wrote: View Post

… Apart from a way to turn a desolate, lifeless, destroyed world into a Garden of Eden. And maybe, depending on how he's garbled the concept in his head, to bring the dead back to life.

(Of course it's madness to think that Genesis could restore someone dead, but, given the sales pitch of Genesis as a way of bringing life to the dead it wouldn't be a totally mad misunderstanding, just, the sort of thing that makes the scientists roll their eyes and start long paragraphs with, ``no, this is what we mean''.)
As I recall, the phrase was "life from lifelessness." That doesn't mean bringing life to the dead. There wasn't any life there to begin with, so there couldn't be anything dead to bring back to life.
Except it does exacly that.
Yes, I know that's what it did. However, that's not what it was originally intended to do.
__________________
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
Timewalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14 2014, 02:21 AM   #34
Leto_II
Commander
 
Leto_II's Avatar
 
Location: Room 303, The Heart O' The City Hotel
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
Their negligence set in motion a chain of events leading to Khan's escape, the destruction of three Federation starships, the deaths of three Starfleet captains (though one was restored to life), another in a long list of conflicts with the Klingon Empire, the deaths of several civilian scientists and the internal controversy spurred by the charges against Kirk and his friends for circumventing Federation policy to go to Genesis and retrieve Spock. All told, I think Starfleet Command should have put itself on trial rather than punishing Kirk (and this is coming from someone who believes the entirety of the TOS films is an illustration of Kirk's leadership-by-arrogance approach to starship command).
Although too, without that same negligence (paradoxically), the Earth itself would've been completely destroyed and much of the human race obliterated, since that chain of events basically put Admiral Kirk and his crew in position to rescue the Federation from the Whale Probe when all other Starfleet assets within range had been neutralized.

In 20/20 hindsight, many historians from Capt. Picard's era likely consider the loss of three starships as being an eminently worthwhile tradeoff.
__________________
"Pablo, please take Chet's corpse into the other room, and then fix Mr. Hallenbeck a drink."
Leto_II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14 2014, 03:39 AM   #35
Clark Terrell
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: USS Reliant
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Leto_II wrote: View Post
Although too, without that same negligence (paradoxically), the Earth itself would've been completely destroyed and much of the human race obliterated, since that chain of events basically put Admiral Kirk and his crew in position to rescue the Federation from the Whale Probe when all other Starfleet assets within range had been neutralized.
I thought about that. It's interesting how events played out. Had the TWOK training cruise gone according to plan, Kirk would likely have never gotten another starship command, and Enterprise would eventually have been decommissioned.

Leto_II wrote: View Post
In 20/20 hindsight, many historians from Capt. Picard's era likely consider the loss of three starships as being an eminently worthwhile tradeoff.
No doubt, but that doesn't change the fact that Starfleet botched the entire Genesis affair in every way possible. Three starships seems like a small price to pay decades after the fact only because things didn't turn out much worse.
Clark Terrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 15 2014, 02:11 AM   #36
Undead
Continuity Spackle
 
Undead's Avatar
 
Location: Unicron (The mockingjay soars)
Send a message via ICQ to Undead
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post

It seemed like he knew of the project by name but may not have had all the details until seeing the video presentation. He was surprised that Carol thought he was trying to take Genesis from her, not that there was such a thing.
The old 25th Anniversary game had a fun mission which involved rescuing the starbase where Stage One of Genesis was being developed from a Romulan attack. Carol and her crew's research had accidentally created a viral agent that caused pneumonia-like symptoms in Vulcans and Romulans, and the Romulans mistook this for a Federation bioweapon.
__________________

"If you think you're brave enough to walk the path of honor, then follow me into the dragon's den."


Knight Exemplar
Undead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 15 2014, 02:47 AM   #37
Shawnster
Fleet Captain
 
Shawnster's Avatar
 
Location: Clinton, OH
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Unicron wrote: View Post
Clark Terrell wrote: View Post

It seemed like he knew of the project by name but may not have had all the details until seeing the video presentation. He was surprised that Carol thought he was trying to take Genesis from her, not that there was such a thing.
The old 25th Anniversary game had a fun mission which involved rescuing the starbase where Stage One of Genesis was being developed from a Romulan attack. Carol and her crew's research had accidentally created a viral agent that caused pneumonia-like symptoms in Vulcans and Romulans, and the Romulans mistook this for a Federation bioweapon.
I count the 25th Anniversary game and Judgement Rights as canon and part of seasons 4 and 5. I loved seeing the FJ tug show up in one of the episodes
Shawnster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 15 2014, 07:50 PM   #38
Shat Happens
Captain
 
Shat Happens's Avatar
 
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

ge the fact that Starfleet botched the entire Genesis affair in every way possible. Three starships seems like a small price to pay decades after the fact only because things didn't turn out much worse.
That only reafirms Kirk is a hero. THE hero.

The old 25th Anniversary game
The use of the terms "old" and "25th Anniversary" together reafirms STAR TREK LIVES FOREVER

soon it will be the 50th
Shat Happens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 15 2014, 08:15 PM   #39
Brutal Strudel
Rear Admiral
 
Brutal Strudel's Avatar
 
Location: Here, frozen between time and place, not even the brightest lights escape...
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Kirk was Chief of Star Fleet Operations between TOS and TMP. We don't what his job was during TWoK but Chief of Star Fleet Operations would put him in the direct chain of command over a mission as vital as Reliant's.
__________________
Once every lifetime, we're swallowed by the whale.
Brutal Strudel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 15 2014, 08:40 PM   #40
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

...And six hundred and thirty-three other missions of equal clout, no doubt.

When we concentrate on the select few onscreen exploits of our heroes, we forget how much clutter there must be in the lives of 23rd century Starfleet officers in general.

Say, Chekov should remember that the Ceti Alpha system featured in his earlier adventures (even if Kirk never told his crew exactly what the ship was doing in that system, or even where she was - his PAs never were particularly informative). Except why should he? It's one of probably hundreds of systems he has visited in professional capacity, if he's kept up the rate evident from TOS. He had much more exciting adventures elsewhere.

Up till the nineties, fallible human memories should have been a plausible excuse for things like ST2. Today, of course, we have Google; checking up on trivia takes no effort at all, and is something we might expect a future hero to do before he goes to toilet, let alone before he beams down to a planet. But Trek heroes don't have Google (nobody in the serialized TV world has, or plots would be much shorter); they don't have memory implants, nano-secretaries or virtual familiars; and we should respect the fact that they aren't exactly Neil Armstrong or Flash Gordon. They are in space because they have work to do, and typically that means they aren't particularly excited about it; aren't interested in digging up potentially related trivia; and don't scan for possibly exploded planets out of mere curiosity.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 15 2014, 08:42 PM   #41
TREK_GOD_1
Fleet Captain
 
TREK_GOD_1's Avatar
 
Location: Escaped from Delta Vega
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Leto_II wrote: View Post
Although too, without that same negligence (paradoxically), the Earth itself would've been completely destroyed and much of the human race obliterated, since that chain of events basically put Admiral Kirk and his crew in position to rescue the Federation from the Whale Probe when all other Starfleet assets within range had been neutralized.

In 20/20 hindsight, many historians from Capt. Picard's era likely consider the loss of three starships as being an eminently worthwhile tradeoff.
Well said. Kirk saved humankind (and everyone else on earth at the time) due to the kind of behavior some would try to criticize. He's above blame for Khan (Starfleet did not do their homework), Genesis, or the Klingons--the latter already using spies to obtain the "secret" of Genesis.
__________________
"...to be like God, you have the power to make the world anything you want it to be."
TREK_GOD_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 15 2014, 10:04 PM   #42
Brutal Strudel
Rear Admiral
 
Brutal Strudel's Avatar
 
Location: Here, frozen between time and place, not even the brightest lights escape...
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Timo: Google was inspired by Spock's library-computer. That's why Google's version of Siri is named Majel.
__________________
Once every lifetime, we're swallowed by the whale.
Brutal Strudel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 15 2014, 10:06 PM   #43
Clark Terrell
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: USS Reliant
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Well said. Kirk saved humankind (and everyone else on earth at the time) due to the kind of behavior some would try to criticize. He's above blame for Khan (Starfleet did not do their homework), Genesis, or the Klingons--the latter already using spies to obtain the "secret" of Genesis.
Which is what I think cooler heads in Starfleet realized when it came time for Kirk's court martial. Notice that Morrow wasn't present for anything post-TSFS. Was he asked to resign because of what happened? Was he demoted? Kirk and his friends were a convenient scapegoat for a situation that was not of their making.
Clark Terrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 15 2014, 10:18 PM   #44
austen_pierce
Captain
 
austen_pierce's Avatar
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Why does Khan want or even care about Genesis? As a weapon?... Sure but that makes Kruge in TSFS a repetitive plot device. As a means to revive McGivers?... If so this is never explained onscreen. Personally I like the latter because it would give Khan's character deeper depth than the singular obsession with Kirk. As it is, one is left to wonder, what exactly is Khan's plan assuming he is able to defeat Kirk?

Back to Genesis, as others have pointed out, at the time of the initial Reliant Enterprise encounter, Khan clearly let's his desire for Genesis compromise his judgement.

"Let me put it in a box for you" Tim Allen
__________________
"I'm not the commander" - Tim Allen
austen_pierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 15 2014, 10:37 PM   #45
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

As it is, one is left to wonder, what exactly is Khan's plan assuming he is able to defeat Kirk?
I think the movie does its darnedest to establish that Khan has no plan - that the once brilliant tactician is now a raving lunatic who sacrifices everything to his quest of hurting Kirk.

When Khan isn't hot and bothered by the hunt, though, he appears outwardly rational, and it would make sense for him to snatch Genesis "just in case", simply because it has already all but dropped on his lap. Although the wonderful idea of him wanting to revive his wife does give the movie extra flavor - which I certainly thought impossible after all these decades of us all obsessing about the flick.

Back to Genesis, as others have pointed out, at the time of the initial Reliant Enterprise encounter, Khan clearly let's his desire for Genesis compromise his judgement.
Hmh? I'd argue the exact opposite. In that encounter, Khan doesn't care about Genesis. He cares about humiliating Kirk, because death would be too easy (he has already demonstrated that well enough), and forcing him to betray Starfleet and his girlfriend by revealing Genesis secrets is well worth any effort and minor delay. (Plus it delivers Genesis into Khan's hands, which is a nice bonus.)

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:47 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.