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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old March 14 2014, 03:24 AM   #46
Clark Terrell
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
[And yet she can be so 'enlightened' that she sometimes comes off as naive, like in Chain of Command.
I don't know that she was na´ve so much as bitter. Her comment to Jellico about having sickbay ready for casualties was priceless.
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Old March 14 2014, 04:09 AM   #47
JarodRussell
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

If a black racist doesn't want a bone marrow transplant from a compatible white racist, who in turn refuses to give it to the black one, the DOCTOR is to blame for trying to convince both to save a life? What kind of messed up world view is that? Shouldn't the racists be blamed for their stubborn bigotry?
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Old March 14 2014, 04:15 AM   #48
Clark Terrell
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
If a black racist doesn't want a bone marrow transplant from a compatible white racist, who in turn refuses to give it to the black one, the DOCTOR is to blame for trying to convince both to save a life? What kind of messed up world view is that? Shouldn't the racists be blamed for their stubborn bigotry?
Yes, they should. But the problem with your analogy is that both parties in your example are human and have been raised with human values. It's not difficult to see who's in the wrong when applying human values to a scenario involving only human participants. But the same values can't be applied to a situation involving Klingons and Romulans, who've been enemies for decades.

And I don't blame Crusher for trying to get Worf to do the right thing. I blame her for continuing to raise the issue after he'd made his feelings clear, and for apparently failing to consider the Romulan's wishes, as he didn't want Worf's help any more than Worf wanted to help him.
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Old March 14 2014, 04:16 AM   #49
Trekker4747
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
If a black racist doesn't want a bone marrow transplant from a compatible white racist, who in turn refuses to give it to the black one, the DOCTOR is to blame for trying to convince both to save a life? What kind of messed up world view is that? Shouldn't the racists be blamed for their stubborn bigotry?
No one is saying Worf is "right" in denying the donation or that the Romulan was "right" in potentially refusing the donation.

Just that once the potential donor said "No", Crusher should have dropped it. And if her PATIENT was saying "No" then she certainly should have dropped it. Have him sign an AMA form or something and show it to Tomalak. "Look, your guy could have been saved but he was being kind of a dick so, what can you do?"

Since she was a doctor saving a life Crusher is probably the "better" one of the three but she certainly isn't 100% in the right in this messed-up situation either.
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Old March 14 2014, 04:27 AM   #50
Armored Saint
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
[And yet she can be so 'enlightened' that she sometimes comes off as naive, like in Chain of Command.
I don't know that she was na´ve so much as bitter. Her comment to Jellico about having sickbay ready for casualties was priceless.
The great naive was DaiMon Solok. (And I'm jealous of this naive.)
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Old March 14 2014, 04:48 AM   #51
The Old Mixer
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

starburst wrote: View Post
To change the situation if this had been around the time of World War 2 and trade the Starship Enterprise for the Carrier Enterprise who had rescued a badly injured German do you think it would be appropriate for a Jewish officer/crewman to be pressured into 'doing the right thing' if he felt so strongly against it?
That would have been an unlikely situation, what with the Enterprise fighting the Japanese in the Pacific and all. Not a lot of carrier action in the European theater.
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Old March 14 2014, 06:37 AM   #52
PhoenixClass
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

It's not inappropriate to show someone the consequences of his actions. Which is what Crusher did by introducing Worf to the Romulan.
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Old March 14 2014, 10:40 AM   #53
starburst
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

Timo wrote: View Post
To change the situation if this had been around the time of World War 2 and trade the Starship Enterprise for the Carrier Enterprise who had rescued a badly injured German do you think it would be appropriate for a Jewish officer/crewman to be pressured into 'doing the right thing' if he felt so strongly against it?
Well, obviously. And if he refused, his CO would do well to order him shot, in the head, so that his kidneys would still be usable. Assuming, of course, that the dying German will take the secrets of the newly activated Nazi nuclear arsenal with him, and a new kidney is the only thing that will preserve him for further interrogation.
Ive always had the impression that shooting those under your command was reserved for desertion and treason not for refusing to donate organs risking your immediate life and long term health in the process.

If this is/was ever an American Military attitude then to be honest most would consider the idea that maybe the wrong side won the war... and if this ever had happened it would have sullied the name Enterprise for me personally.


The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
starburst wrote: View Post
To change the situation if this had been around the time of World War 2 and trade the Starship Enterprise for the Carrier Enterprise who had rescued a badly injured German do you think it would be appropriate for a Jewish officer/crewman to be pressured into 'doing the right thing' if he felt so strongly against it?
That would have been an unlikely situation, what with the Enterprise fighting the Japanese in the Pacific and all. Not a lot of carrier action in the European theater.
Well yes there is that small fact which tears my analogy apart but trading Enterprise's.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
If a black racist doesn't want a bone marrow transplant from a compatible white racist, who in turn refuses to give it to the black one, the DOCTOR is to blame for trying to convince both to save a life? What kind of messed up world view is that? Shouldn't the racists be blamed for their stubborn bigotry?
Yes they are to blame but no matter the basis of their issue the Doctor cant force one or both to go through with it.

If Picard had ordered those involved to perform the transfusion I have no doubt we would be discussing the moral issues of forcing someone to go through with a procedure, even a life saving one, which you could assume would have shortly led to the Romulan committing suicide due to now being 'tainted' with 'dirty' Klingon blood.
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Old March 14 2014, 10:50 AM   #54
Clark Terrell
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
It's not inappropriate to show someone the consequences of his actions. Which is what Crusher did by introducing Worf to the Romulan.
But the consequences of whose actions? Worf refused to be a donor, but the Romulan also refused his help. The Romulan's death was the result of two people's choices, not one as Crusher (and Picard) seemed to believe.
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Old March 14 2014, 10:54 AM   #55
Tosk
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

The death of an individual is nothing compared to slightly offending someone.
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Old March 14 2014, 10:55 AM   #56
Clark Terrell
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

Tosk wrote: View Post
The death of an individual is nothing compared to slightly offending someone.
Has anyone here said otherwise?
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Old March 14 2014, 11:22 AM   #57
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
It's not inappropriate to show someone the consequences of his actions. Which is what Crusher did by introducing Worf to the Romulan.
But the consequences of whose actions? Worf refused to be a donor, but the Romulan also refused his help. The Romulan's death was the result of two people's choices, not one as Crusher (and Picard) seemed to believe.
The Romulan doesn't get a say, as his superior officers threateningly demanded his safe return, & Worf only gets a choice in so much as Picard allows it, which I believe was done to demonstrate to Worf the liberty in Starfleet, & the duty that comes with it

Last edited by Mojochi; March 14 2014 at 08:13 PM.
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Old March 14 2014, 11:34 AM   #58
Timo
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

He calls Worf to the ready room and has an entire speech scene trying to nudge Worf into making the 'right' decision of saving the Romulans life and after all that speech he contacts Bev to tell her not to ask for Worfs help.... and she tells him it doesnt matter anymore because hes died !
I sort of imagine Picard hailing Crusher in the middle of a delicate surgery, and the beep makes her hand slip. "Thanks for calling, Sir, he's dead now. Or perhaps I should say thanks to."

Seriously, knives, I can't really imagine Crusher taking her time to report the death. It probably just happened to coincide with Picard calling.

As I said above the biggest problem I have is that Picard seems a bit needlessly irrational in the episode. Given the information he has, that the injured Romulan was the only man on the crashed ship, it seems like it would be in his and the Federation's best interests for that man to survive lest it make more problems with the Romulans.
How so? Romulans respect shows of force. Picard could call them that he had located a survivor from an illegal spying mission, tortured him to death, and has recommended that the UFP send an ultimatum to the RSE regarding the matter. Meanwhile, Tomalak is allowed to come retrieve the body, in a Federation transport escorted by Starfleet warships. But he has to sign a confession to authorizing the spy mission first. That would minimize current and future problems with Romulans.

As you say, though, this is about different cultures clashing, aboard Picard's ship as well as outside it. From what we know of the Romulan culture, Tomalak would not have fired anyway, not unless Picard fired first, and Picard wouldn't do that, so we can forget about that part of the tension-building. Picard holds all the trump cards here, but if he plays them and defeats Tomalak, he betrays the policies he wants to promote. It's a PR gig rather than a combat engagement, and Picard has to make sure his side comes out smelling of roses.

Yet not any old roses, but only those roses deemed acceptable in a complex analysis of the interactions with this odd and alien culture. So "showing humane sentiment" won't work, but playing hardball the Romulan way won't win the required points, either.

Like why go to a Klingon when Vulcans are actually related to Romulans and should be more likely to provide a better match?
It's not particularly likely that species identity would be relevant here. After all, all humanoid species in Trek are more or less the same, capable of interbreeding and whatnot. Clearly, Klingons and humans have the same medicobabble elements in their blood as Vulcans and Romulans here, as Crusher is studying them all for compatibility.

If this is/was ever an American Military attitude then to be honest most would consider the idea that maybe the wrong side won the war... and if this ever had happened it would have sullied the name Enterprise for me personally.
But you wouldn't care, because the Nazi atom bomb would have killed you.

That's the emphasis here: soldiers are supposed to die for their country as needed, and sometimes the need is particularly great. The sterile atmosphere of "The Enemy" fools people into thinking that the need in this particular occasion wasn't particularly great, but other elements in the episode suggest that it was at least comparable to Nazi A-bomb secrets being at stake.

As for wrong sides winning wars, that invariably happens. You can't win a war without being on the wrong side - the one committing the greater offenses to humanity, i.e. the most murders and/or the worst deterrence demonstrations. Winners simply stand on the tallest piles of skulls.

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Old March 14 2014, 12:11 PM   #59
Tosk
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
The death of an individual is nothing compared to slightly offending someone.
Has anyone here said otherwise?
I sure hope so.
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Old March 14 2014, 02:10 PM   #60
Trekker4747
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Re: Crusher Out of Control in "The Enemy"

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
It's not inappropriate to show someone the consequences of his actions. Which is what Crusher did by introducing Worf to the Romulan.
In a medical situation, I'd say it is. Worf's body, Worf's choice. Do you think a present-day doctor would have you meet face-to-face a man you refuse to donate blood for or donate a kidney or part of your liver to?
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